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 Sliscus in a venom

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Sliscus in a venom   Sat May 25 2013, 19:06

@Brom wrote:

The reference to 0.5 is a little confusing and not what I am intending. This could be construed as the transport essentially cancelling the unit that is in reserve (0.5 vs 0.5) but not equaling a normal unit which counts as 1, which is not what im asserting.

I'm sorry to hear that, did my best to make the 0.5 a little less confusing. And it is what I am intending. See calculation why transport does not simply cancel out unit that is in reserve (0.5 vs 0.5).

@Brom wrote:

There is a subtle difference which I will try to describe a little more plainly below:

For the purposes of determining reserves each unit counts as 1. Each dedicated transport also counts as 1. Period.

Period? Behind something you are dead wrong about? Because...

@Brom wrote:

For those units that MUST start in reserve, the unit AND their dedicated transport together count as 1 (which is then ignored per the rules on page 124.. otherwise players would be ignoring the unit and counting the DT).

I think I understand your confusion. You read the line: "A unit and it's Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes" as belonging to the line: "Unit that must start the game in reserve..." But these are seperate subjects. You shouldn't read them together. Or would you else read the line after that about ICs as belonging to the line: "Units that must start the game in reserve..." aswell? So...

@Brom wrote:

Make more sense now?

No. Are you less confused about the 0.5 though?

@Brom wrote:

Anything else including counting a unit as 0.5 tends to make more problems then it resolves. This then is why I assert the quote below is simply clarifying how dedicated transports are counted for forced reserve units only.

'Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

Yeah, again... Sorry, this has nothing to do with forced reserved units. That is a problem on it's own. You really shouldn't read those 2 sentences together. Why? Well (like I said before in this post) the sentence after that talks about ICs. So when you quote, be complete please:

'Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes. Independant Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of wether they have joined another unit or not."

Or do you believe the part about ICs also to be about forced reserves? I hope you don't. Again, it's about counting DTs and their passengers as 1 single unit. And how to handle this when you want to deploy them seperatly. I'll make the equation clearer... How much is 1 divided by 2? Exactly, 0.5. This solves this problem and is not confusing at all.

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Brom
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PostSubject: Re: Sliscus in a venom   Sat May 25 2013, 20:11

tlronon- holy...no need to be rude dude, especially about something that is far from clear. It starts an arms race over something that was casual discussion.

I do know that nowhere in the entire rulebook does it say anything about 0.5. If you are going to scrutinize other peoples responses to such an extent take care to scrutinize your own. Please quote the relevant section that says to count anything as 0.5. Ya doesnt exist.

As for calling me on quoting the entire section, fair enough thought we all knew the language we were discussing but will do...now go back one page and read your own post:
Quote :
Rulebook Page 124 "Preparing Reserves": "A Unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

Hope this helps.
Doesnt look like an entire section does it? Ever heard the pot and kettle story? I'll ruin the ending for you...their both black.

Early Tony asked:
Quote :
Are 'these purposes' referring to the wording immediately preceding them, 'Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so', as in Drop Pods, indicating that a Drop Pod type unit only counts as one as opposed to two, or is it referring to the entire entry preceding the phrase, thereby including the bit about players choosing not to deploy half their army? This is a significant difference.
I do indeed take the language to pertain to the wording directly preceeding the statement I quoted (incompletely) and which is a valid intepretation and actually works very smoothly in-game.

Meanwhile the problem with counting ANYTHING in this game as 0.5 is that you would need ANOTHER 0.5 in order to make a whole, which is NOT something that works well in-game.

Bottom line play it how you see fit tlronin I dont much care. Ive said my part here and others can take it for what its worth.
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Sliscus in a venom   Sat May 25 2013, 20:43

Didn't mean to be rude. I apologize. You are right, my reply is a bit harsh.

Just felt as if my post where I explain the example wasn't read by you at all. 'Cause you don't really comment on the extra raider you can keep in reserve. So perhaps I got a bit carried away. Worked so hard on that calculation, please give it a read. Razz

In the end you can use whatever you like ofcourse, it's your call. Like you said, you don't have to listen to me at all. But I did my best to explain why that isn't entirely fair. Too bad I didn't succeed. Smile

Sorry again if I ruffled your feathers a bit. I can be a bit passionate about these discussions sometimes, my bad. Wink

Maybe we should leave it as is? Or perhaps other people can comment on the discussion. Or not... Haha.

Edit: If I please may defend a thing or 2 there Brom (after reading your post a 2nd time). I didn't say the 0.5 is in the rulebook. I said it's the only fair solution to the problem. As Mush pointed out earlier, GW is perfectly clear in the ruling again... Not.

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PostSubject: Re: Sliscus in a venom   Sun May 26 2013, 00:14

Accepted and I apologize as well. Passionate I can understand and im not always the best at conveying my thoughts on the web so maybe my comments came off more preachy then I intended. Im more of a face to face rather than facebook heh.

Anyway ya I did read your diagram and ive since gone back and read it again. I do understand each way will render slightly different results.
If 2 players are each on a different interpretation those results would be skewed in favor of 'my' interpretation. If however both players are on the same interpretation, either one, it shouldnt be much of an issue. I literallly dont care which way is used since I tend to avoid reserves except for drop pods so it doesnt really matter to my armies.

I do agree GW could pay a little more attention to rules that come into play as often as reserves.

To the OP, sorry for muddling your topic man...and with that I'll move on.
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PostSubject: Re: Sliscus in a venom   Sun May 26 2013, 10:03

No worries from my end guys, I won't profess to have followed everything but it was an interesting debate.

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PostSubject: Re: Sliscus in a venom   Sun May 26 2013, 10:07

Quote :
Didn't mean to be rude. I apologize.
Quote :
Accepted and I apologize as well.
And this is why TDC is a wonderful place! Very Happy

I played a Sliscus Venom like this up until recently when I noticed the rules. It's a shame, though. It wrecked anything it touched, especially with Splinter Cannon Trueborn.

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