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Cartoon-Peril
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PostSubject: Haemy Armies   Mon May 13 2013, 04:56

So, I have some intention to start building up a custom Coven list. This is mostly for hobbyist reasons, i.e. I really want to build and paint this stuff lol. Regardless, since I'll eventually have this stuff on hand anyway I'm interested to know how viable the mad science/frankenstein lists are on the tabletop. Anybody had any luck with them or are they destined to look cool in a drawer?

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Mon May 13 2013, 10:07

I'd say go over the realspace raids (battle reports) and see how viable coven builds are. In short they can be very viable. But as always with the DE it's about synergy. So you' ll have to think carefully about your list.

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Nappen
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Mon May 13 2013, 11:21

Skari has a bunch of coven batreps.
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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Mon May 13 2013, 17:36

Having an army packed with Grotesques, Pain Engines and Liquifiers wrecks the face of any army, assuming you can get those units into combat.

I run Coven based armies often but I usually throw two to three units of Warriors in Raiders with Splinter Racks for som shooting support.

I run two units of Wracks usually to either sit on objectives or to reinforce other combat situations. (Grotesques usually have those sorted out, anyway. I've only started to use Gots in the last few games, so don't take my word for it. I am experienced in using Pain Engines and Haemies, though. Having Liquifiers and Splinter Cannons on the Talos Pain Engine is a good way to go.

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Mon May 13 2013, 17:46

30 grots, talos x2 and a Cronos sounds fun at 1800.
Would have to be HWG wyches in venoms for AT though

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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Mon May 13 2013, 20:11

30 grots would be insane! I can't afford 30 lol
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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Mon May 13 2013, 21:08

I use nids.
VC crypt horrors as "true" grotesques used as pit handlers and Tyranid Warriors and Ravenors as pit beasts

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Balisong
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Mon May 13 2013, 21:49

The thing about Grots is that they are almost always "Failcasts".

But some, take photos of the inevitible issues, get additional ones sent from GW.

Boom 2 for the price of 1...
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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Mon May 13 2013, 21:51

I bought some converted from a beast men minatour, crypt horror and a rat ogre. Have converted my own as well I now have 10 I think, haven't run them out of a webway portal yet though.
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Tue May 14 2013, 03:15

@Crazy_Ivan wrote:
I bought some converted from a beast men minatour, crypt horror and a rat ogre. Have converted my own as well I now have 10 I think, haven't run them out of a webway portal yet though.

Is the webway portal viable? It seems like it takes to much time to set up reliably since your probably looking at move up turn 1, set up turn 2, potentially get your reserves up turn 3 and maybe be in a charging position by turn 4. Furthermore, just a question on the engines. Is the spirit probe worth using on Chronos engines and are Twin-Linked Liquifiers actually preferable to the chainflails on Talos?

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Tue May 14 2013, 07:35

Problem with the portal is you need to set it up turn 1 or risk reserves coming in turn two and having to come in from the board edge.

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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Tue May 14 2013, 08:50

Portals are tougher in 6th, due to as Mush said, you have to get them down T1.

I'm liking the Wracks/Haemie combo in Raiders ATM - Haemie and Acothyst w/ VB's is juicey and the 2 pain tokens gives the entire unit rerolls off the charge vs T4.....they also took down a Riptide in 3 assault phases on the weekend lol

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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Tue May 14 2013, 10:30

You would have to deploy your webway portal units as far forward as possible, move 6, gain another 2" by turning the raider then disembark 6".
I've often thought of having a 20man warrior squad coming out of one but am yet to try it.
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Tue May 14 2013, 14:09

and most of the player's around were i play absolutely hate the talos, for good reason.

and your talos set up is a harder question to answer, different area's and different play styles.

i personally like to get my talos up close and personal ASAP, so extra CCW and chainflails all the way.

I used to run a haemy in the wracks for the extra pain token but know put him in a unit of warriors to start them with a token instead. this lets me take the extra LG in a unit of 10 wracks in their raider.
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Jehoel
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Tue May 14 2013, 20:48

A coven list would suffer from lack of firepower so I would definatly add some additional firepower from kabalites or other codex options.

To make the entire trip across the map on foot is a recipe for disaster so I would definatly throw as many wracks and grots as possible in raiders. (They can be made to look very coven like). This will also give you some needed AV firepower

The talos and cronos can be great visual centerpieces and definatly play a fluffy role in a coven list, but I have yet to see a very succesfull use of them. Their primary function becomes firemagnets, imo. You cannot rely on the WWP to be your friend so you will most often have to walk them all across the map. Then add the risk of a hammer and anvil game and you'll have a lot of movement to do before you make it into CC

A heamy with VB with an escorte of 4 grotesques including a scissorhand aberation can make any enemy troop have a very bad day. And with the rules concerning CC against vehicles they will rip anything with a 10 rear armour apart!!

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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Tue May 14 2013, 22:19

Definitley check out Skari's most recent battlereports. He's been playing nothing but Coven for the past few episodes, and his tactical corner goes over the short comings of the Coven lists and how to overcome them.

https://www.youtube.com/user/SkaredCast/videos

His videos are short too typically less than 10 min. but cover the flow of battle excellently, with good recap and analysis.
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Khain mor
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Sat May 18 2013, 08:38

You've got several excellent Coven armies here and on Warseer, some of those on both the sites.
As far as modelling they're very fun, certainly worth it, if you're a good modeller and painter other can enjoy this army too. No offense to anyone, it's pretty logic why everyone enjoy a well painted army more than a badly painted one.
If you're good with greenstuff, with conversions and paint well, go for it, for sure.

As far as the battlefield, Covens are effective, I also got quite a bunch of of Coven units, not as much as I wish though. I got like 35 wracks, tohugh most Old models, I really need to get more to have 6 squads made out of new wracks only. Got no grots sadly : (. Got plenty of Talos though, if you're familair with Spearhead, you know it's possible to field 6 Talos,and honestly yeah I've done it. I have no regret in admitting it's a harder to use choice than simply using our ravagers and flyers, since those stay at long range to remain alive. The deployment and movement with the talos is a lot harder. That's the problem with talos & cronos vs ravagers. Wwp is definietely worth considering. I did use wwp with 2 talos + 1 cronos, with a good wwp placement this is devastating, pretty much a game winning move, if well executed.

Grots only become useful in the bigger type of battles, you need to focus on Troops and heavy support in the smaller battles.
I don't have them, but i've seen and read enough battelreports to know they are quite ok in cc. I do have other squads from other armies of this genre, I can imagine what they can do very well. Pretty much the squad that can ake on quite a lot, A heamonculus is a must, with the abberation, they pack quite a punch, but the best HQ to give them is Urien, making it an absolute Deathstar unit within your Coven.

As far as the Dark Eldar factions, Wych Cults are currently the least popular due to the latest CC rules (too bad for people like me, I got 80 wyches : ( and it makes me very sad I can't use them all in this edition)
Kabals are the most popular and most effective factions, which isn't bad you know, in fluff, they are the prevaling faction within Commrragh, the faction that holds most of the power at least.
Covens come in, to a second place, a very respectable place. CC rules now are troublesome, giving trouble for cc units, coven units however do have their FnP which protects them quite well, making wracks still somewhat effective, even a little more effective than wyches, because of their better survivability.

Coven means no Wych stuff, Kabalite stuff however is less difficult to take as allies. As you know Scourges are almost Coven units as teir bodies were changed by Heamonculi. Raiders aren't really offical units of any faction, but their pilot and gunner are warriors or wyches I guess, no offocial wracks piloting or using the gun, but I guess it's possible in theory.

You need the Kabalite stuff for firepower, you need it really badly, both in troops, heavy support or any other FOC section. Talos and cronos should be the main Heavy supports in a Coven force, but ravagers or a flyer or two are also valid choice, at the Coven needs the firepower badly. To keep your army like a true Coven you must have a great number of Coven units, but it's fine to have some Kabalite units within the force, it's harder to explain having Wych stuff in your Coven, but i'm sure it can be explained as a temporary alliance or something else.
A full hardcore Coven army works, but it's harder to use ad in theory, less effective.


BTW on the wwp tactic, doesn't have to be on turn 1, If you manage to survive and deploy the talos & his friends later on, this can be pretty devastating. You have to manage to keep the rest of the army ok though. Wracks can be used in cc to block LOS, raiders, warriors, etc shoot in between the gaps in the LOS. Once you've killed enough, talos and friends come out. I've used this with 2 talos +1 cronos in reserve, once those 3 come in, the battle is won next few turns.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Sat May 18 2013, 10:39

@Khain mor wrote:
BTW on the wwp tactic, doesn't have to be on turn 1, If you manage to survive and deploy the talos & his friends later on, this can be pretty devastating.

But what if the Talos & Friends come in from reserve on turn 2? Then they HAVE to come in from the board edge, leaving them stranded and useless. The Webway Portal can't be used to force units to stay in reserve like it did back in 3rd edition.

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Spiney Norman
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Sat May 18 2013, 23:58

@Mushkilla wrote:
Problem with the portal is you need to set it up turn 1 or risk reserves coming in turn two and having to come in from the board edge.

It depends on what you want to achieve, you can pass the mid point of the table if you deploy a raider sideways at the front of your dep zone, turn to face the enemy (gains you about 2" because of the length:width ratio of raiders) then fly 6", deploy 6" off the prow and drop the portal, ok so you're not right in their face, but your portals' front edge should be approx 7" from their deployment zone (2"+6"+6"+3" from template) and since you can't charge the turn you arrive from reserve (that I'm aware of) this ought to be close enough for most situations.

The problem with portals is you really need two or three for the strategy to effectively work with at least one portal on each flank, and by that point its getting pretty expensive with a character to carry each portal and a unit and raider to host each one. Haemies accompanied by min-sized wrack units (or 5 w/ Liquifier) to look after them and bring the transport.

While we're on the subject of haemonculi covens, what do you guys think of Hexrifles, are they worth it and who (if anyone) should carry them?
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PostSubject: Re: Haemy Armies   Sun May 19 2013, 00:11

Thanks guys, I'll definitely keep this in mind. As far as hexrifles go I always thought they might have some good synergy with splinterborn or with small, objective-camping wracks on a haemy or acothyst repectively. However, I have yet to experiment with either of these strategies.

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