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Jack Russel
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PostSubject: Fixing Drahzar   Mon Jun 20 2011, 23:18

I used Drahzar for the first time today for fun. He did alright and managed to kill a Space marine captain. He was with a squad of Incubi of chourse and they took out the captains terminator squad. He also helped kill a tactical squad after all his Incubi died and he consolidated towards an objective and contested it. All in all he did alright but for 230 Points he was a real let down.

If it were not for his points cost he could be alright. His special rules are actually decent the Murderous assult, Klaivex and Riposte mean he can get a crap load of attacks and his Darting strike can make him a really effective character killer. But for 230 points you can get an Archon that can do the same job for much cheaper or Asdrubael Vect for 10 points more. I really see no point in taking Drahzar instead.

After a while of thought about what would make him worth it, and then I thought : He would be worth it if he could make Incubi troops. If he could make Incubi troops then I could deffinatly see a reason to take him. He would really add something to the amy and would make him stand out from the other characters and it would make him much more effective. And as a side note it would be fun to do an Incubi themed army.

So what do you guys think. Should Drahzar make Incubi troops ?
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Tue Jun 21 2011, 01:03

IMHO he (along with Decapitator for Mandrakes and Lelith for Wyches/Bloodbrides) should be "upgrade" of Incubi leader, not HQ choice.

He should have Prefered Enemy. I10 for lulz (yes, despite having Incubus Warsuit). 4 wounds. Phantasm Grenades would be nice.

Maybe allowing 1 Incubi unit (not necessary his) to be Troop choice, kinda like Warboss.
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Radium
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Tue Jun 21 2011, 05:58

He needs an invul save. Surely if wyches can dodge stuff, so can he? Just read his little piece of fluff, as that surely justifies one.

I don't think Drazhar should make Incubi troops though. He's the silent gladiator/assassin, not the shrine leader. Besides, I don't really think Incubi go out on their own, they get hired to protect someone. And in Commorragh, people always need protecting which means the Incubi always have a job and don't need to do realspace raids on their own. And since they don't do stuff on their own, they shouldn't be the mainstay unit of any army: ie never being troops.

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Saintspirit
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Tue Jun 21 2011, 13:05

Agree, he shouldn't make Incubi troops. I do like the idea of him being an upgrade character, though I think that fits Kheradruakh better. As it seems it is mainly his cost that is the problem, so maybe just change him into costing like 215 or something?

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shamroll wrote:
Dang! I was hoping Tyranids followed the Pokemon naming idea. A big Carnifex running around just yelling "Carnifex! Carni-Carnifex!" followed by a squad of termagants all saying "Termagant" to each other.
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Todo13
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Wed Jun 22 2011, 11:15

He needs an invuln save and preferred enemy. Then he might actually be worth taking as a combat character…
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Saintspirit
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Wed Jun 22 2011, 11:34

@Todo13 wrote:
He needs an invuln save and preferred enemy. Then he might actually be worth taking as a combat character…
Would make sense too, as he is after all at least as fast as a wych, if not faster.

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shamroll wrote:
Dang! I was hoping Tyranids followed the Pokemon naming idea. A big Carnifex running around just yelling "Carnifex! Carni-Carnifex!" followed by a squad of termagants all saying "Termagant" to each other.
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Jack Russel
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Wed Jun 22 2011, 21:07

The problem with Drahzar is I cannot see why to take him. If he made a single squad of Incubi troops I would consider taking him. Yeah he does need and inv
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Local_Ork
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Wed Jun 22 2011, 21:41

IMHO his, Lelith and Decapitator problems is they should not be in HQ in the first place. If You are "upgrade" then Your butt gonna be spanked last.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Wed Jun 22 2011, 22:02

Only one Phoenix Lord has an invul save, you do realize that? Asurmen to be exact, and it is only a 4+ invul save.

Personally, slice his price down to the price of Maugan Ra (little under 200), give him an uber demiklaives that gives +d3+1 strength or attacks, and make Riposte and Onslaught on a 5+ and then i would be taking him every time.

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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Tue Jun 28 2011, 09:49

Just like all of the other Phoenix Lords, he should be WS, BS and I 8, with 4 wounds and 5 attacks base, and with some kind of Invulnerable save. Oh, and GRENADES!

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a1elbow
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Wed Jul 13 2011, 06:09

Just points decrease and he would be fine. If he had a 2+/4++ and EW he would be nigh on unkillable with his damage output. I think he is more or less okay, he just isn't the type of character that buffs a force (Lelith on the other hand should actually buff Wyches, rather than a Kabalite character being the defacto choice for Wych cult forces).
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Wed Jul 13 2011, 11:01

@a1elbow wrote:
If he had a 2+/4++ and EW he would be nigh on unkillable with his damage output.

Have you seen Lysander?

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Wed Jul 13 2011, 12:16

Or Draigo!!! he is not that many more points then Drazhar, Makes Paladins troops, has a massive statline inc 4 wounds, T5, EW and a 2+/3++...

Oh plus the master crafted force weapon at S5 base... and can be increased to S6-10...

Drazhar could just get a 4++ and leave it at that and be balanced fine.

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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Wed Jul 13 2011, 12:21

@Massaen wrote:
Or Draigo!!! he is not that many more points then Drazhar, Makes Paladins troops, has a massive statline inc 4 wounds, T5, EW and a 2+/3++...

Oh plus the master crafted force weapon at S5 base... and can be increased to S6-10...

Drazhar could just get a 4++ and leave it at that and be balanced fine.

Indeed, I'd just like WS and I 8 out of principle. Drazhar is definitely faster and more skilled than an Archon, as are all of the phoenix lords.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Sun Aug 14 2011, 18:49

I find that drahazar is a very usefull model a klavex and himself devastated at 1500pt guard army with no problems he himself killed at least half the army. i admit a inv.save would be nice.
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Saintspirit
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Mon Aug 15 2011, 09:57

Or to the very least, give him an Inv. save in CC (particularly considering his background when he killed the hierarch fast as hell).

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shamroll wrote:
Dang! I was hoping Tyranids followed the Pokemon naming idea. A big Carnifex running around just yelling "Carnifex! Carni-Carnifex!" followed by a squad of termagants all saying "Termagant" to each other.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Mon Aug 15 2011, 16:52

he needs an invul, but I highly doubt he will get one cause the other PLs dont have one either.

What he really needs are nades!!!! But anyway, lets stop the ranting.

Making Incubi as troops would be interesting, but it would also make him the most expensive utility HQ we got (as Haemies and Baron are cheap as dirt for what they do). What he should do is add more towards the incubi other than being a beefed up, over expensive klaivex. But then again he follows the PL code... so we know we wont see a change till they do.

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Saintspirit
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Mon Aug 15 2011, 17:52

No, sadly that is probably true... I would rather have seen Drazhar being a code for how the Pl will be (particularly a invul save, but maybe other stuff too).

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shamroll wrote:
Dang! I was hoping Tyranids followed the Pokemon naming idea. A big Carnifex running around just yelling "Carnifex! Carni-Carnifex!" followed by a squad of termagants all saying "Termagant" to each other.
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SirTainly
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Mon Aug 15 2011, 19:26

I think he's ok as he is, but he just needs to be cheaper, Lelith makes a good alternative for a lot less points.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Mon Aug 15 2011, 20:11

actually I dont think lelith is worth her points either. She isnt bad persay, but all those S3 attacks means nothing if she cant wound. Actually if they just gave her drugs, i think she would be decent, cause then you could get all those amazing stat boosters...

Out of the two though, I would take Darhzar over her any day, atleast he boosts his squads preformance, and can get away from power fists...

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Sun Sep 11 2011, 22:51

Whilst I like the idea of Incubi as troops, they would be perhaps too overpowering. Mount them up in Venoms and let them contest objectives and the whole game changes, and that's before you start adding in Trueborn and any of our superbly nasty heavy support choices. People would cry foul on that one. Taking them as a retinue was great though. That would be nice to do again, don't really see why they got rid of that, especially seeing as it says in the codex what great bodyguards they are. Plus they have no special rules to lose by being joined by an independent character, and those Lhamaean and Ur-Ghul models are so disappointing and dull!

Drazhar as a character is fantastic, he's like a ninja version of the Stig! I used to have him in my old 4th edition army, and he sliced and diced his way through his fair share of stuff. He's tougher than he used to be, and his abilities are better... but 140 points better? Not sure about that one. I suppose you can use him as a stand-in for a Klaivex, seeing as GW have rather meanly decided not to include the upgrade options for one in the box of Incubi...

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Tue Sep 13 2011, 19:18

It would be better if phoenix lords (including Drazhar) just made one squad of their 'disciples' scoring. Asurmen would have something else obviously.

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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Wed Sep 14 2011, 09:17

@Anggul wrote:
It would be better if phoenix lords (including Drazhar) just made one squad of their 'disciples' scoring. Asurmen would have something else obviously.
I and some others at Dakkadakka has discussed this. We think the best would be that Asurmen makes avengers stubborn.

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shamroll wrote:
Dang! I was hoping Tyranids followed the Pokemon naming idea. A big Carnifex running around just yelling "Carnifex! Carni-Carnifex!" followed by a squad of termagants all saying "Termagant" to each other.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Wed Sep 14 2011, 09:37

@Anggul wrote:
It would be better if phoenix lords (including Drazhar) just made one squad of their 'disciples' scoring. Asurmen would have something else obviously.

It seems fine for the CE phoenix lords, but Drazhar isn't a leader, he's a silent killing machine. Giving him support abilities doesn't fit his fluff. The only fitting fixes I can see would be to drop his cost, increase his combat abilities to match his current price tag (which would certainly require an invulnerable save of some sort) or both. Since the idea of our pheonix lord not being superior in every way to the craftworld eldar ones is simply absurd, I'd pick the second option. Besides, if every IG Company Commander can get their hands on a 5+ invulnerable save, I'd say the Master of Blades should be able to get one too.
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PostSubject: Re: Fixing Drahzar   Wed Sep 14 2011, 10:53

@Rainbow Dash wrote:
@Anggul wrote:
It would be better if phoenix lords (including Drazhar) just made one squad of their 'disciples' scoring. Asurmen would have something else obviously.

It seems fine for the CE phoenix lords, but Drazhar isn't a leader, he's a silent killing machine. Giving him support abilities doesn't fit his fluff. The only fitting fixes I can see would be to drop his cost, increase his combat abilities to match his current price tag (which would certainly require an invulnerable save of some sort) or both. Since the idea of our pheonix lord not being superior in every way to the craftworld eldar ones is simply absurd, I'd pick the second option. Besides, if every IG Company Commander can get their hands on a 5+ invulnerable save, I'd say the Master of Blades should be able to get one too.
Inv save? Definitely. Not because of a force field, but Drahzar is supposed to be a damn dodgy guy. At least an inv save in CC, preferably all the time.

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shamroll wrote:
Dang! I was hoping Tyranids followed the Pokemon naming idea. A big Carnifex running around just yelling "Carnifex! Carni-Carnifex!" followed by a squad of termagants all saying "Termagant" to each other.


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