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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Sat Apr 20 2013, 21:35

I hope this is the correct place for silly wish listing?

Mandrakes:

Fear. Poisoned]. Rending. Remove 'Baleblast' and 'Infiltrate'.
Special: 'From the Shadows': Do not deploy the Mandrakes. Instead, at the start of your Assault Phase nominate an enemy unit. That unit must make a Ld test. If the test is failed, the Mandrakes are placed in close combat with it with neither side counting as charging (but no overwatch rolls being made). If at the end of your assault phase the surviving Mandrakes are not locked in combat, they go back to the shadows (but may return in the same way again in your next assault phase).

Reasoning: They are supposed to be terrifying daemons given form by their victims' own fears that step out from their shadows to grab them, aren't they? I don't think that is very well represented by 'Infiltrate'. Of course it means that they might not turn up in a game at all, but I think that's fair. I imagine enemy soldiers hearing eerie whispers and getting shivers down their spine, and if they let it get to them (i.e., fail a Ld test) then the Mandrakes appear, and if not, not.

Wyches:

Dodge: 4+ invulnerable save against wounds caused by close combat attacks AND 6+ against wounds caused by shooting attacks.

Reasoning: They need at least a chance to survive being shot at, and they are supposed to be nimble and quick on their feet. It's basically the same dodge that Lelith Hesperax gets, only not as good (because she is the super wych, and they are only wyches).

Bloodbrides:

Dodge: 4+/6+ as above. Also, up to 3 may be armed with Razorflails, up to 3 may be armed with Hydra Gauntlets, and up to 3 may be armed with Shardnet and Impaler.

Reasoning: They need to be an option that you might want to take instead of Incubi. Why not let them all have wych weapons? As long as you limit it so that they can't have 10 Hydra Gauntlets, for example.

Succubus:

Quick Dodge: 4+ v. close combat, 5+ v. shooting.

Reasoning: It gives her a chance to survive being shot at, and it follows a certain logic. Thus wyches get 4+/6+ but a Succubus, being a wych boss gets 4+/5+, and Lelith the super wych gets 3+/4+.

Lelith Hesperax:

Deadly Speed: Lelith rolls 3 dice when making Run moves, picking the highest result.
Murderous Perfection: Lelith can re-roll failed To Wound rolls in close combat.

Reasoning: Lelith is supposed to be so good that she doesn't need combat drugs, achieving the same result through her perfect skill. I believe this is supposed to be reflected in her having WS 9 instead of WS 8 like a 'normal' Succubus (as if she had rolled a 2 for 'Serpentin' on the Combat Drugs table). That isn't really so great though, and after a certain point a high WS doesn't make that much difference. Why not give her one of the 'good' results as well (and the 'bad' one, just for good measure)? Letting her start the game with a pain token seems a bit much, +1 to Strength doesn't seem right, and the last thing she needs is another attack, so that leaves the equivalent of Painbringer, which also kind of fits.

Hellions:

Jink.

Reasoning: It just seems as if they ought to have it. They are riding those skyboards, not parachuting down on them.

Talos and Cronos:

It will not Die.

Reasoning: Because Mushkilla just suggested it and it seems absolutely appropriate.

Razorwing and Voidraven:

Vector Dancer

Reasoning: Because it's a crime that they don't have it!

So what do you think? I'm not bothering with whether any of this would increase their point costs or reduce them, as that is best left to someone who knows what they're doing and there isn't much point really.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Sat Apr 20 2013, 21:47

I saw your name and I knew it was going to be about wyches.

I agree with a lot of this, personally I would rather have wyches get their 4++ against melee and overwatch. Sure, now you can charge through cover with the PGL, but it means you don't have to, and it gives a save against flamers on overwatch which is nice. Representing them doing flips and cartwheels on the charge, and being almost impossible to hit. I miss the old wych weapons that halved your opponents weapon skill. Sad

I believe hellions used to have "jink" in the 2nd edition dark eldar codex (before it became a universal rule). It would be fitting in any case, seeing as their flying stands make it hard for them to benefit from cover, without risking area terrain.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Sat Apr 20 2013, 22:00

@Mushkilla wrote:
I saw your name and I knew it was going to be about wyches.

Embarassing! I think I'll just stick my head in a bucket of cold water until it stops glowing red now.
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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Sat Apr 20 2013, 22:09

Definitely agree about jink on Hellions, and a better way to represent Mandrakes' ability to strike from the shadows.

@Mushkilla wrote:

a save against flamers on overwatch
Flamers can't overwatch since they're template, and only weapons that can snapshot can overwatch.

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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Sun Apr 21 2013, 08:16

Templates have their own rule, d3 hits.
Blast weapons cant overwatch, templates can

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Mngwa
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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Sun Apr 21 2013, 08:42

With those additions to mandrakes, I would seriously take them. Rending is a good idea I had thought of, but that "From the Shadows" is just brilliant for them!
The Bloodbrides should be more worth it too with those.
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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Sun Apr 21 2013, 09:25

I think it should be the mandrakes LD.
And I think they should have to pass to disappear again.

Its too hit and miss using enemy LD.
You have a 3 in 36 chance against LD10, and a 6 in 36 against LD9 (1/12 and 1/6)
Even fading in on both assault phases, they wont come in against MEQs more than once or twice a game

Using their own LD to come in, they can come in 72% or 83% of the time with the Squad Leader.
But only get out 52% and 69% of the time.

Maybe they always strike first out of the shadows (with charging bonus?) but get a general debuff, not that they are buff to begin with? Then they become "Hit and Run: Xtreme".

They can semi reliably come in to play against back field troops, have some chance of getting back off the field before the enemy can mass on them. Anyone read Sabbat Martyr? Sounds very like that to me.

Maybe they take damage if they dont escape back to their home dimension?
They come here for victims, but cant survive here?

Just me wittering Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Sun Apr 21 2013, 12:02

@DominicJ wrote:

Templates have their own rule, d3 hits.
I thought it was odd that I'd be correcting Mush. Been through the rulebook cover to cover several times and still missed that. Would be nice if GW learnt to put all relevant rules in the same place.

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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Sun Apr 21 2013, 16:36

@Erebus wrote:
@DominicJ wrote:

Templates have their own rule, d3 hits.
I thought it was odd that I'd be correcting Mush. Been through the rulebook cover to cover several times and still missed that. Would be nice if GW learnt to put all relevant rules in the same place.


Hehe, I'm still learning stuff that I missed. As awesome as 6th edition is the rule book is a mess of contradictions and exceptions. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Sun Apr 21 2013, 22:39

I was thinking the other day that Wyches should have a 5++ versus shooting - not that they're dodging bullets per se but more that they are nimble that they'd be jumping, wall running, cartwheeling all over the place and difficult to hit.

Don't want to start a new thread purely for one idea but I've always thought Flickerfields would be interesting if they were -1 to hit instead of the invun.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Mon Apr 22 2013, 04:40

@DominicJ wrote:

I think it should be the mandrakes LD.
And I think they should have to pass to disappear again.

Its too hit and miss using enemy LD.
You have a 3 in 36 chance against LD10, and a 6 in 36 against LD9 (1/12 and 1/6)
Even fading in on both assault phases, they wont come in against MEQs more than once or twice a game.

That's kind of the point, that the more frightened you are of them the more likely they are to get you. I think simply appearing in close combat would be a bit too much if it were reliable, so you would want it to be hit and miss, but maybe I'm punishing them too much? It could be a Ld test at -1, or -2. Let the maths inclined figure it out!

@Sky Serpent wrote:
I was thinking the other day that Wyches should have a 5++ versus shooting - not that they're dodging bullets per se but more that they are nimble that they'd be jumping, wall running, cartwheeling all over the place and difficult to hit.

Well I'm trying to be fair and not be accused of overreaching... but hell yeah. How about:

Wyches and Bloodbrides 4+ in combat / 5+ v. shooting.
Succubus 3+ / 4+
And Lelith 2+ / 3+

Or is that going too far?
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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Mon Apr 22 2013, 06:37

Quote :
Well I'm trying to be fair and not be accused of overreaching... but hell yeah. How about:
Wyches and Bloodbrides 4+ in combat / 5+ v. shooting, Succubus 3+ / 4+, And Lelith 2+ / 3+
Or is that going too far?
that would be overreaching. you have to look at the opposite end of the field as well. Harlequins use flip belts to do effectively the same thing and the only thing they have is a 5+ invul, only when the Shadowseer is present do they also get stealth and shrouded. also Jain Zar is a Phoenix Lord and supposedly has been around since the creation of the first aspect warriors, so who would know the dance of death better than her and harlequins?
now if Jain Zar had an invul save at all, then i could see this as a possibility, but right now the only thing i can see for wytches is to leave them as they are but give them a re-roll on failed armor saves.
as for the bloodbrides, according to their fluff they are highly competitive against each other, i could see an increased invul save vs shooting only if there was a downside to it as well. for instance, we've already established a re-roll of failed saves, soo, every roll of a 1 is auto fail with no re-roll, because that bride got accidently on purpose, shoved/kicked/pushed/booted/tripped/whatever into the path of the shot.

as for Hellions, i have to agree on the jink roll, even though they are listed as jump infantry, their not, they are more like jetbikes. space marines use their packs to propel themselves up and forward, basically doing nothing more than a rocket assisted 'jump', warp spiders 'teleport' from one place to another, and neither of those is anything close to way skyboards move around.

mandrakes - do them the same way that Mind War is done for Eldar Farseer, you and your opponent both roll a D6 and add leadership of the units to the die roll, however, due to the "Sir, the Shadows are moving" fear effect, the opposing player must use the LOWEST leadership in the unit. for every point you win by, that is the number of mandrakes that appear and MAY assault. overwatch as normal, but with an invul or increased armor save allowed due to the mandrakes still being wrapped in 'shadow stuff'. assault as normal as well.

i may be off target on my rambling thoughts to this, what with being extremely new to Deldar, so if i'm completely off target and sound like a total bucket head, well you just have to forgive me, and make due with caning me for my transgression in your imaginations.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Mon Apr 22 2013, 07:31

@SebastionSynn wrote:
@Barking Agatha wrote:
Well I'm trying to be fair and not be accused of overreaching
that would be overreaching.
See?

@SebastionSynn wrote:
now if Jain Zar had an invul save at all, then i could see this as a possibility, but right now the only thing i can see for wytches is to leave them as they are but give them a re-roll on failed armor saves.

Sorry, but that would be utterly pointless. They never get to roll an armour save anyway, failed or otherwise, so what use is a re-roll?

As for Jain Zar, I would wait about six weeks before I reached any conclusions. I'm guessing we will be pleasantly surprised.

@SebastionSynn wrote:
what with being extremely new to Deldar... well you just have to... make due with caning me for my transgression...

Not quite so new to Deldar, I see.
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SebastionSynn
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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Mon Apr 22 2013, 12:17

Quote :
SebastionSynn wrote:
what with being extremely new to Deldar... well you just have to... make due with caning me for my transgression...


Not quite so new to Deldar, I see.
LMFAO!! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Mon Apr 22 2013, 16:21

The 'From the Shadows' rule is very interesting, making the mandrakes a very valuable support unit. Before I continue, I love the rule and think it is spot on! Good idea! Also my tactics are all based on theories and not by experience.

With this rule the mandrakes can:


  • Negate overwatch - Against tau firewarriors, IG troops or orks this could save many wyches lives that don't charge from cover etc (provided that the units counts as being locked in combat by the rule)
  • Provide CC support - This could make charging with our weaker CC units viable. Imagine scourges/TB/KW charging MEQs with mandrakes, they would probably not wipe the MEQs but they will survive due to striking first and killing enough marines to stay on top. Add VB or agonisers if needed.
  • Tie down - Tie down enemy heavy weapons or shooters
  • Last round Contest/linebreaker - If the enemy got units camping on their side, you could suddenly get linebreaker on them(lower ld the better!). Or deny their camping troops VP.


I think using enemy leadership would work, if the intentions would be for the mandrakes to take on lower Ld armies like IG or tau?

Will IC be able to to join the squad? :p
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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Mon Apr 22 2013, 18:07

Quote :
I think using enemy leadership would work, if the intentions would be for the mandrakes to take on lower Ld armies like IG or tau?

Which is exactly my problem

Had a thought today.
Lances/Dizzies on Venoms?

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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Mon Apr 22 2013, 18:10

I like the mandrakes rule, and think its very interesting indeed. A decent write up. Although I feel they should come in like reserves (so T2 earliest) and kinda work like deathmarks.

I dont think wyches should get an invul, its very expensive for an invul on your basic troops, but I agree with mush that they should be able to get the dodge versus overwatch for no points increase.

The WS on lelith is just because she is that good, and not because of drugs. Also WS9 is that magic number where MEQ needs 5s to hit you instead of 4s, so it is a huge thing for why she has it (and why the +1 WS drug on a succubus is so good) Personally I think Lelith just needs a points drop, as getting FC to make her good is hard enough. She would be way better if she was like 125


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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Mon Apr 22 2013, 18:29

The from the shadow does sound pretty decent, but I agree with Shadow above - it should begin first on turn 2. Not sure though that they should only come in in that way, I find it more appropriate if they can be shot at in some way (then they could have baleblast as well). Perhaps they should be shrouded?

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PostSubject: Re: Some random silly ideas that popped into my head   Mon May 27 2013, 03:31

I agree with the rest of you that hellions need jink. Badly.

As for the mandrakes though I think you could make due with some kind of wargear to lower enemy leadership. In the older books didn't we have some kind of terror gun that lowered the leadership of the squad being shot at? That with mandrakes could be useful. Or you could have a squad upgrade to the mandrakes that lets them lower the leadership of the unit they are attacking.

Also, to keep them from screaming all over the board and railing everything in sight, you could have it so that they only vanish and reappear if they take out the squad in one turn.
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