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sgb69
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PostSubject: Forgeworld   Tue Apr 02 2013, 04:08

So, I held a tournament recently and allowed forgeworld models. Which is all well and good. We had about 16 people.

The winner was using that 30k army book that Forgeworld put out maybe less than a year ago.

My main concern is that he earned 22 battlepoints out of a possible 24. The next highest person scored 13. Something like 4 other people scored 12.

He was running two Vindicators, three predators kitted out like the plasma executioner leman russ, and three or so squads of dudes in rhinos. The Tanks had interceptor and all of his bolters fired twice with rending. On top of having a pretty beasty HQ. At 1,500 points.


tl;dr: is this army crazily over powered? Should I allow forge world stuff at my events in the future?

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redwulfe
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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Tue Apr 02 2013, 05:17

WE typically only allow forgeworld stuff that actually has the Warhammer 40,000 approved stamp on it. This tends to disallow any of the custom armies that forgeworld has made as those are typically made for the campaign that is in that specific book and not for general play. Also this does not allow some of the older forgeworld stuff that where not really balanced with the rest of the game in mind or the appocolypse stuff. For us this has worked very well and we don't see many broken thing come out of this.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Tue Apr 02 2013, 07:10

@sgb69 wrote:

He was running two Vindicators, three predators kitted out like the plasma executioner leman russ, and three or so squads of dudes in rhinos. The Tanks had interceptor and all of his bolters fired twice with rending. On top of having a pretty beasty HQ. At 1,500 points.


tl;dr: is this army crazily over powered? Should I allow forge world stuff at my events in the future?

I play the heresy army list a lot and have many questions about this... Can you post his list??? The vindicators and executioner turrets can't sky fire for example and I can't think of a way to get rending on the bolters...

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Tue Apr 02 2013, 07:19

I don't think their Heresy books are even intended to be balanced with 40k. They're really their own game, with rules purposefully amped up to show all the awesome stuff the Imperium used to have before crap hit the fan.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Tue Apr 02 2013, 07:20

They are fine vs 40k... I have a game vs IG on my YouTube channel if your interested. You loose flexibility and most importantly ATSKNF along with many basic options from normal marine lists.

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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Tue Apr 02 2013, 08:02

He'd given his squads Sniper, which allows them to wound anything on a 4+ and rend and pin.

I don't have a solid list.

Turns out it was two troop choices and a command squad with the HQ in it.

One of the predators was some variety of command tank? It was what handed out interceptor to another tank in the squad. This came into play in the final match where he nuked a squad of deepstriking crisis suits with plasma.

Did the codex have that official stamp on it? I should've checked. Though it was last minute and we were rushing around mightily busy-like. The store owner didn't have as many tables, boards, mats, or terrain bits as promised so there was a lot of last minute kicking down doors and swiping 40k supplies.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Tue Apr 02 2013, 09:29

The command tank upgrade does indeed give interceptor to a single weapon in the squadron but that's it. Handing sniper to the tacticals means they were veteran tacticals... Which are elites...

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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Wed Apr 03 2013, 01:58

hmm... sounds like this was blown out of proportion and bits were improperly played. I'll hit him over the head.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Wed Apr 03 2013, 05:08

If you can get the full list I am happy to go over it for you

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The Eye of Error
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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Wed Apr 03 2013, 06:04

Warhammer 30k and warhammer 40k are 2 different beasts entirely. One should not compare them to eachother.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Wed Apr 03 2013, 06:25

They can cross over just fine though... In fact, bar the lords of war I would say the 30k rules are entirely balanced when compared to the current range of dex

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Khain mor
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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Sat Apr 27 2013, 00:15

Our Reapers are pretty overpowered, in pairs they're horrible against mech armies.

His army is spam and powergaming, however it's a tournaments. The point is to win, you have fun at friendly games, however here it's exactly the point to bring the best, even if it seems cheated or overpowered.

A Dark Eldar army with plenty of dark matter shots can take on any army.

It's not really the forgeworld that's a problem, just the list, but mostlikely the opponents lists weren't good enough.

Our flyers though expensive still are pretty anoying, especially the Voidravens vs heavy tank armies.

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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Sat Apr 27 2013, 14:10

30k isnt really that bad, I would suggest trying to grab the list from him so we can take a look. Overall something just sounds janky, although it could of just been as you guys did not know it, you werent prepared for it (you see that alot with forgeworld, and is the major reason people dont like playing with them, as they dont know their general rules off the top of their head)

In reality FW isnt really that bad, actually there is quite alot of bad in their catagories... but there are a few gems. For us we have the reaper, and eldar allies have a ton of good stuff (nightwing, warp hunter, hornet) So personally I would say allow it, but learn the rules you are fighting against. That way you wont be caught off guard when he pulls a "oh, my tank gives me interceptor... and I rend..."

also even though he has interceptor, does it give skyfire as well??? because if not, you still need 6s to hit flyers (interceptor just allows you to shoot units as they come in from reserve, and having that and skyfire allows you to shoot full BS against ground targets)

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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Sat Apr 27 2013, 14:42

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
30k isnt really that bad, I would suggest trying to grab the list from him so we can take a look. Overall something just sounds janky, although it could of just been as you guys did not know it, you werent prepared for it (you see that alot with forgeworld, and is the major reason people dont like playing with them, as they dont know their general rules off the top of their head)

In reality FW isnt really that bad, actually there is quite alot of bad in their catagories... but there are a few gems.

Totally agree. I won't go so far as to say that this chap was cheating, but he certainly didn't know his rules. We allow FW at our LFGS (tournaments and league play) and haven't found problems with the lists overall.There was a Nuns with Guns player (SoB) that grossly misread the rules for the Supressor transport (I think that is what it was called scratch ). We called him on it; he didn't have the rules for it, we checked online-he was totally playing it wrong. Some players tend to really latch onto the awesome parts of the rules while skipping the restrictions. Sadly, this happens with normal 40k rules and lists too...

Basically, if it sounds to good to be true-ask to see their rules because it probably is Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Sun Apr 28 2013, 07:48

Has anybody actually used the Tantalus? I really like the catamaran style of the model and being able to cart around a larger warrior or wych squad seems cool.
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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Sun Apr 28 2013, 08:02

I have used one its an amazing model just so big! Can be quite hard to maneuver if you have alot of scenery.
Its disintegrator cannons are amazing against marines.
Can be taken as dedicated transport for a court, meaning you get to keep your 3 ravagers as well Smile
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sgb69
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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Sun Apr 28 2013, 09:09

Original List and that player's commentary wrote:
Legion Praetor - 150
++Paragon Blade - 25
++Iron Halo - 25
++ Rite of War - Pride of the Legion - 0

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad - 270
++ +5 Veterans - 15/ea - 75
++ 2 Plasma Guns - 15/ea - 30
++Rhino - 35
+++ Dozer - 5
++ Veteran Tactics: Sniper - 0

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad - 270
++ +5 Veterans - 15/ea - 75
++ 2 Melta Guns - 15/ea - 30
++Rhino - 35
+++ Dozer - 5
++ Veteran Tactics: Sniper - 0

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad - 240
++ +4 Veterans - 15/ea - 60
++ 1 Heavy Flamer - 15
++Rhino - 35
+++ Dozer - 5
++ Veteran Tactics: Sniper - 0

Legion Predator Strike Armor Squadron - 320
++ Predator - 75
+++ Executioner Plasma Cannon - 35
++ Predator - 75
+++ Executioner Plasma Cannon - 35
++ Predator - 75
+++ Command Tank - 25

Legion Vindicator - 125
++ Dozer - 5

Legion Vindicator - 125
++ Dozer - 5


I was terrified of facing any fliers, as my only real anti-flyer stuff was the Veterans with rending bolters. Other options would be to take out the vindies, drop one of the executioner cannons back to a autocannon, and add in 2 double autocannon dreads. It probably would have been a more balanced list, but this was much more terrifying.


As the sole TO and Judge for that tournament, I didn't have time to monitor any games. Generally though, this guy is one of our oldest, and most experienced players and the former guy who ran tournaments.

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PostSubject: Re: Forgeworld   Mon Apr 29 2013, 14:54

Ok... Based on your original post, the majority of what you posted is fine. The main variation is the legion vet tacticals. They do to gain rending but sniper. As per the FAQ they always wound on a 4+ and gain precision shot. That's it. No mention of rending at all.

Secondly, the command tank grants interceptor - not sky fire - and it's only with 1 non ordinance weapon.

Other than that... Which legion was he using?

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