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NiteOwl
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PostSubject: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 07:55

From what I have read, it seems like you can get two pain tokens from the cronos when you overwatch.

If you read the entry for spirit proobe on p.41
Quote :
...If a Cronos with a spirit probe kills one or more enemy models during the assaul phase..

Since overwatch is resolved during the assault phase (p.22 main rule book) it is possible to generate generate two pain tokens from overwatch if you overwatch with your spirit syphoon.

Any objections?

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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 08:36

You are quoting during the assault phase with a different weapon though.

Reading the other 2 weapons though, it just says kills 1 or more with no specific timing... Thus it would work on over watch

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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 08:38

RAW, maybe, RAI, not a chance

Its clear that the probe is intended to be a CCW, not a rule that boosts shooting.
You get one for overwatching your flamer, and one for killing in CC.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 09:34

@DominicJ wrote:
RAW, maybe, RAI, not a chance

Pretty much this. It's definitely legal but I'd be surprised if it was intended. On the other hand, many people have a bit of a downer on the Cronos so would it really be OTT to buff it a little in this way? If the Spirit Vortex wasn't a Blast weapon you could Overwatch it too for a possible 3 Pain Tokens! Shocked

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NiteOwl
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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 11:12

Okey, that's great news for my Dark Eldar. Not so much for my friends Twisted Evil

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Mngwa
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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 11:37

RAI? Yet again a nick I dont know. Tried to google, found nothing, so asking here Embarassed
Also... OTT?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 11:54

RAI = Rules as Intended/Interpreted. A somewhat nebulous term which basically means "How the rules are supposed to work".

OTT = Over The Top. Overpowered etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 14:43

I think the rules for an overwatch attack are pretty clear it is resolved like a normal shooting attack. pg. 21

The spirit probe does not function like a normal shooting weapon. In fact it's not a shooting weapon at all. It does not have a range, number of attacks, strength or AP assigned to it. It's a piece of kit that modifies the Cronos' melee attacks.

RAI or RAW doesn't support using the spirit probe in the fashion you would like.

Having said that I really like my Cronos. I don't think it has failed to give me those much needed pain tokens and survive several turns of heavy weapons fire. It doesn't really need this questionable boost.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 14:44

@average joe wrote:
I think the rules for an overwatch attack are pretty clear it is resolved like a normal shooting attack. pg. 21

The spirit probe does not function like a normal shooting weapon. In fact it's not a shooting weapon at all. It does not have a range, number of attacks, strength or AP assigned to it. It's a piece of kit that modifies the Cronos' melee attacks.

RAI or RAW doesn't support using the spirit probe in the fashion you would like.

Sorry, but RAW it is 100% legal. You can argue all you like about RAI, and I wouldn't necessarily dispute it, but not RAW.

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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 14:47

Wow that was a fast reply. Smile

Would you agree that only shooting weapons follow the normal shooting rules? If you agree then we'll have to figure out how the spirit probe is a shooting weapon. If we can do that then perhaps we can then argue that it can be used to make an overwatch attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 14:49

@average joe wrote:
Wow that was a fast reply. Smile

Would you agree that only shooting weapons follow the normal shooting rules? If you agree then we'll have to figure out how the spirit probe is a shooting weapon. If we can do that then perhaps we can then argue that it can be used to make an overwatch attack.

Nobody is saying that it is a shooting weapon or even that it is used to make an overwatch attack. The Spirit Probe rules say:

Quote :
If a Cronos with a Spirit Probe kills one or more enemy models during the assault phase...

Overwatch occurs in the assault phase. If Overwatch fire kills an enemy then you have fulfilled the criteria to produce the pain token.

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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 14:55

Understood, but the overwatch rules clearly state that an overwatch attack follows the normal shooting rules. How does the spirit probe fit into the normal shooting rules? Well, it doesn't. Therefore it may not make an overwatch attack. The spirit probe merely modifies the Cronos' melee attacks.

The spirit probes effect takes place in the assualt phase, but in order for it to be applied as an overwatch attack it must meet the requirements for overwatch attacks.
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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 14:59

@average joe wrote:
Understood, but the overwatch rules clearly state that an overwatch attack follows the normal shooting rules. How does the spirit probe fit into the normal shooting rules? Well, it doesn't. Therefore it may not make an overwatch attack. The spirit probe merely modifies the Cronos' melee attacks.

The spirit probes effect takes place in the assualt phase, but in order for it to be applied as an overwatch attack it must meet the requirements for overwatch attacks.

That's simply not true. The overwatch attack has followed all the normal shooting rules. The spirit probe has followed its own normal rules. There is no conflict between the two (and even if there was the codex takes precedence). Both work.

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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 15:10

What you're saying is the spirit probe generates a second pain token when the spirit syphon causes wounds in an overwatch attack.

Considering when our codex was written I personally wouldn't assert that the above is allowed without a faq/errata. At best it is a loophole created by the inclusion of overwatch into this new edition.

Personally I wouldn't claim the second pain token but I suppose we each have our own approach to interpreting the oddities in the rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 15:17

@average joe wrote:
What you're saying is the spirit probe generates a second pain token when the spirit syphon causes wounds in an overwatch attack.

Correct

Quote :
Considering when our codex was written I personally wouldn't assert that the above is allowed without a faq/errata. At best it is a loophole created by the inclusion of overwatch into this new edition.

It would need a FAQ/Errata to disallow its use, not to allow it.

Quote :
Personally I wouldn't claim the second pain token but I suppose we each have our own approach to interpreting the oddities in the rules.

As I've said a few times in this thread, I'm not convinced that this is RAI but it is legal. I wouldn't necessarily use it either unless I'm playing a WAAC-type.

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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 15:42

I'm convinced it's not RAI. Granted this is only because I'm familiar with the 5th edition rules. I can see that someone who doesn't know 5th edition rules would see the spirit probe's RAW to allow for a second pain token.

In the rare instance that I might encounter another DE player and this actually comes up I suppose I'll be generous and allow for the second pain token. This will add to my air of superiority when I defeat this weak and undeserving archon. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Tue Mar 19 2013, 23:30

If anyone tried to claim that second pain token against me I would pack up my models and go home, never to play that person again. 40k is meant to be a FUN game, where the players immerse themselves in a far-future world that most of us over 30 year old veterans have seen develop ever since we as young boys joyfully clutched our Rogue Trader books and put them in our rucksacks to take to school . It is being ruined by idiots who seem to see it as an exercise in competitive gaming, not for a second even caring about the background, they might as well be using colored lego brick cubes called 'brick A' etc, for all they care about the imaginative side of the game. It's a GAME, a representation of a universe that exists in all it's glory in the imagination's of true lovers of 40k like me, not a soulless exercise in statistics and self-aggrandisement. All you rules lawyers who want to urinate all over the intention of the game to represent an escapist unreality that has been a constant source of enjoyment to me for over 20 years, go and play another game and stop destroying something I truly love.
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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Wed Mar 20 2013, 00:13

Wow fellas, it was not my intention to start a farse. I just asked a question about the rules. Never said anything about for or how I was going to use it. Razz

And please, for next time. Keep your speeches about how some people are ruining your hobby. We are on the internet and nobody cares, especially not in this thread.

Do as I do and just don't play against them. Pick your fight cheers

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Timatron
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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Wed Mar 20 2013, 00:48

A. The word is Farce, farse is not a word
B. I will say whatever I want and you can't tell me not to
C. Not "some people", people like you
D. "This thread" is called Rules Queries and Questions, not Rules and how to willfully misinterpret them
E. I would never "do as you do", what you do is abhorrent to me

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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Wed Mar 20 2013, 02:34

@Timatron wrote:
If anyone tried to claim that second pain token against me I would pack up my models and go home, never to play that person again. 40k is meant to be a FUN game, where the players immerse themselves in a far-future world that most of us over 30 year old veterans have seen develop ever since we as young boys joyfully clutched our Rogue Trader books and put them in our rucksacks to take to school . It is being ruined by idiots who seem to see it as an exercise in competitive gaming, not for a second even caring about the background, they might as well be using colored lego brick cubes called 'brick A' etc, for all they care about the imaginative side of the game. It's a GAME, a representation of a universe that exists in all it's glory in the imagination's of true lovers of 40k like me, not a soulless exercise in statistics and self-aggrandisement. All you rules lawyers who want to urinate all over the intention of the game to represent an escapist unreality that has been a constant source of enjoyment to me for over 20 years, go and play another game and stop destroying something I truly love.

Firstly, being a TFG cuts both ways. Yeah, people rules-lawyering and trying every dirty trick to weasel a victory sucks, but being the kind of person who "packs up and goes home" (not to mention getting upset just IMAGINING the situation on a forum) over a small slight, real or imagined is just the other side of the coin.

Secondly, the Spirit Probe is wargear, not a weapon. It has no profile, and the wording of the entry makes it clear that it is intended that it's affect be applied to all Assault phase kills, regardless of weapon used. The argument that this is a pre-overwatch book may or may not be valid (the designers stated they wrote it with much of the then-unreleased 6th changes in mind) but what I really don't get is why one couldn't possibly imagine that this bit of arcane alien superscience would necessarily NOT function in the imaginary situation? It's beyond the pale of reason to imagine that a soul-sucking death machine wouldnt float over to a corpse that had been recently fried by it's other weaponry to probe it's rapidly departing essence?

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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Wed Mar 20 2013, 04:21

@ NiteOwl
Just to be on the safe side and for the sake of future dialogue.
I certainly don't find any fault with your question or the discussion it generated . Nothing wrong with asking this kind of question even if your intent was to squeeze out any advantage you could. I enjoyed reading and participating in the discussion.
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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Wed Mar 20 2013, 07:15

the spirit probe still only generates 1 pain token however you got it, whether from over watch or just bashing something to death. over watch is a part of the assault phase so if you get a pain token here then you dont get 1 for eating a marine during the assault part of this phase. you do get 2 if the spirit syphon kills during overwatch, 1 for the syphon kill and 1 for the probe kill. any further kills during this round of combat do not generate further pain tokens as the requirements are already full.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Wed Mar 20 2013, 09:07

@baster wrote:
the spirit probe still only generates 1 pain token however you got it, whether from over watch or just bashing something to death. over watch is a part of the assault phase so if you get a pain token here then you dont get 1 for eating a marine during the assault part of this phase. you do get 2 if the spirit syphon kills during overwatch, 1 for the syphon kill and 1 for the probe kill. any further kills during this round of combat do not generate further pain tokens as the requirements are already full.

Absolutely, and I don't think anyone has suggested that the probe would generate any further pain tokens that assault phase. All that really happens is that you generate a pain token before any blows are struck rather than after. As the effects of the token don't start working until the end of the phase it won't otherwise affect the combat in any event.

@Timatron - overreact much? Surprised

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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Wed Mar 20 2013, 13:23

@baster wrote:
the spirit probe still only generates 1 pain token however you got it, whether from over watch or just bashing something to death. over watch is a part of the assault phase so if you get a pain token here then you dont get 1 for eating a marine during the assault part of this phase. you do get 2 if the spirit syphon kills during overwatch, 1 for the syphon kill and 1 for the probe kill. any further kills during this round of combat do not generate further pain tokens as the requirements are already full.

Ya, that's how I interpreted this as well, and since by the FAQ the tokens don't take effect until the end of the phase the whole situation should only cause an issue if the unit assaulting is destroyed during overwatch. Then the can of worms gets worse because you'd technically generate 3 pain tokens, 1 for the Cronos, and 2 that can be dished off.
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PostSubject: Re: Cronos pain engine   Wed Mar 20 2013, 13:29

@Timatron wrote:

A. The word is Farce, farse is not a word
B. I will say whatever I want and you can't tell me not to
C. Not "some people", people like you
D. "This thread" is called Rules Queries and Questions, not Rules and how to willfully misinterpret them
E. I would never "do as you do", what you do is abhorrent to me

A. You will have to excuse me, English is not my first language.
C. People like me? I am no means WAAC-player. I simply asked a question about a rule I didn't fully understand.
D. "This thread" is called Rules, Queries and Questions, that excludes your judging of my character.
E. Is it abhorrent to ask questions? Smells like the spanish inquisition Razz

Respectfully, NiteOwl

Quote :
@ NiteOwl
Just to be on the safe side and for the sake of future dialogue.
I certainly don't find any fault with your question or the discussion it generated . Nothing wrong with asking this kind of question even if your intent was to squeeze out any advantage you could. I enjoyed reading and participating in the discussion.

How nice of you average joe! I thank you for your participation Very Happy

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