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 New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?

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Dogmar
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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Mon Mar 04 2013, 15:07

I'd of course let people move their chariot 6 and still fire, a chariot is obviously intended for moving so it should be able to fire its short range weapons when doing so... but still, someone really messed that up RAW Wink

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Mon Mar 04 2013, 16:00

3 Nurgle Soulgrinders for 450pts, sitting behind ruins with a 2+ cover save anyone? That's 9 skyfire autocannon shots a turn (not all too great I know...) that form a solid defensive backbone.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Mon Mar 04 2013, 16:16

@Sky Serpent wrote:
3 Nurgle Soulgrinders for 450pts, sitting behind ruins with a 2+ cover save anyone? That's 9 skyfire autocannon shots a turn (not all too great I know...) that form a solid defensive backbone.

No thanks! Wink I'll have one as an ally though!

Think this beast will be a popular choice (a daemon players answer to heldrake spam?), though it won't be a given that you could hide them all behind decent cover.

Haven't picked up a copy of the codex yet, but probably will do next weekend. It sounds really interesting & a bit random, and i'm glad they deploy more conventionally now. Reckon splinter & darklight fire will still get the job done in most cases (nurgle soulgrinders excepted), though our aircraft pilots are looking a bit nervous...

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Mon Mar 04 2013, 22:37

Those nurgle soulgrinders sound nasty. I guess that's one of those cases where you will need haywire grenades... walkers hate those.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Tue Mar 05 2013, 02:51

At 150, with 3 Autocannon shots and shrouded... that's pretty scary.

At least it doesn't have Interceptor, so our fliers will be able to have one turn of shooting. I kinda see the Razorwing Jet as a good answer to hordes, and a horde with good anti-air will be a little scary.

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Dogmar
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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Tue Mar 05 2013, 15:05

From my first looks the units (with few exceptions like the soulgrinder, which you really pay for) the units have gotten weaker and cheaper - looks more hord-ish now.

Still most hitty stuff is squishy and most resilient stuff is not very hitty (from my first looks at the book that is, mind you). I'd say they look balanced, I'd have to play them a few times to really judge that though since there are so many random effects like the warp storm and all that.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Wed Mar 06 2013, 08:06

As a daemon player and just having read the new codex I have to say I love it! Despite them removing hit and run from all the slaanesh units (I had an army based around that), and the loss of grenades. The combinations seem endless, all the units seem viable, and it really seems like a synergy based army that presents lots of new mechanics.

Icons now work regardless of whether you just arrived on the board this turn. So you can deepstrike a unit with an Icon and then use the instrument to pull through a support unit like the nurgle beasts (which are designed to counter charge to protect units on the turn they deepstrike). In short the have hideously reliable and accurate mass reserve deepstriking options. This truly is a reserved based army!

Wonderful work Mr. Kelly, you have turned this army into a fine art that will take some time to master. The way it should have been, and I can say without a doubt that the bandwagon daemon players are going to be gone within a month!

By the power of infiltrating shrouded nurglings I commend thee! To all those screamer using Daemon players out there, my Dark Eldar jetbikes... they better than yours... they better than yours... Smile

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Wed Mar 06 2013, 09:20

Bought the codex the other day but haven't had time to read through it properly yet (the perils of having an 8 month old baby in the house and stuff to paint in what is laughingly known as my 'spare time'). What I have seen looks...okay. It is of course another blatant attempt by GW to sell more models, as every troop choice is now cheap and only usable in large numbers. Some of the units are a little mystifying (Bloodcrushers, I'm looking at you!) and there are some much needed nerfs to flamers and screamers, although the flamer nerf makes them essentially useless.

Will wait to see it in play before making further comments though.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Wed Mar 06 2013, 11:04

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Some of the units are a little mystifying (Bloodcrushers, I'm looking at you!) and there are some much needed nerfs to flamers and screamers, although the flamer nerf makes them essentially useless.

Crushers are still great because they can work with the cannon, they are also cavalry now so a lot faster, fleet impact hits and so on. Also you can deep strike accurately with icons, and instruments help coordinate your forces. Same goes for flamer, sure they are not as good but they will now land exactly where you need them. It really is an army that will take some thought to use. So many build possibilities!

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Wed Mar 06 2013, 11:37

I just don't think that anything with T4 and a 5++ save is going to be much use. They are going to get nuked by anything with S8 or more to instagib them and ignore the 3 wounds they might as well not have.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Wed Mar 06 2013, 19:25

@Mushkilla wrote:
To all those screamer using Daemon players out there, my Dark Eldar jetbikes... they better than yours... they better than yours... Smile

Well, with this new Codex I can stack Prescience, Endurance, and a 3++ save-re-roll-1's on my 2W sharky jetbikes without really breaking a sweat, so while you have your fancy Blasters and Eldar move, the sharks have friends in high places looking out for them Smile

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I just don't think that anything with T4 and a 5++ save is going to be much use. They are going to get nuked by anything with S8 or more to instagib them and ignore the 3 wounds they might as well not have.

They also want some high flying friend to look after them. I think that, just like in other game systems, buffing will be better than blasting at getting results.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Wed Mar 06 2013, 21:05

So I take it you like the new daemons too CaptainBalroga?

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I just don't think that anything with T4 and a 5++ save is going to be much use. They are going to get nuked by anything with S8 or more to instagib them and ignore the 3 wounds they might as well not have.

But you can get four heralds for one HQ slot. Khorne heralds are T4 and therefore T5 on Bloodcrushers. Stick 1-2 heralds in a unit of bloodcrushers and they can take the S8 shots and look out sir the rest. The fact is they are now seriously fast and get hammer of wrath, Like I said lots of options in this codex given a little thought.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Wed Mar 06 2013, 23:47

@Mushkilla wrote:
I love it!
Very nice to read something genuinely positive.
Having trawled through a Warseer thread packed to the gills with knee-jerk reactions, whining, wimpering, invective, rage-quiting - not to mention soul destroying attempts to immediately break the rules for maximum advantage - and general pessimism, it comes as quite a relief!

@Mushkilla wrote:
The way it should have been, and I can say without a doubt that the bandwagon daemon players are going to be gone within a month!
Hope so - I hate those guys! Even though I'm not a daemon player I'm really looking forward to reading through this new codex. Perhaps my chaos marines will get some allies after all.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Thu Mar 07 2013, 00:02

I have a question regarding the new Demons HQ choice -- in the page with the heralds it says you can include 4 Heralds in your army (its a box on top page listing all the Heralds of the Gods, + Skulltaker, Karanak, Epidimus, Changling.) So Im wondering if it is something like you can have 2 Heralds per choice (with 2 HQ choices would equal to 4 Heralds total) or if its you can include 4 Heralds per primary detachment. Thanks if anyone can asnwer this question.

*edit* Sorry I feel dumb --- I had that question in my head, dont know how I didnt see it - sorry


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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Thu Mar 07 2013, 00:06

@Mushkilla wrote:
So I take it you like the new daemons too CaptainBalroga?

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I just don't think that anything with T4 and a 5++ save is going to be much use. They are going to get nuked by anything with S8 or more to instagib them and ignore the 3 wounds they might as well not have.

But you can get four heralds for one HQ slot. Khorne heralds are T4 and therefore T5 on Bloodcrushers. Stick 1-2 heralds in a unit of bloodcrushers and they can take the S8 shots and look out sir the rest. The fact is they are now seriously fast and get hammer of wrath, Like I said lots of options in this codex given a little thought.

Sure but that's taking an already expensive unit and adding a couple of hundred points to it in order to make it effective. Still, I'll wait and see what lists people can come up with as time goes on and see how well Daemons do in tournaments now that you can't just spam 27 screamers and 27 flamers Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Thu Mar 07 2013, 03:09

So wait --- if I wanted to, I could field 8 Heralds in under 2,000 pts? Just want to make sure I am understanding this right.
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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Thu Mar 07 2013, 07:06

@Ciirian wrote:
So wait --- if I wanted to, I could field 8 Heralds in under 2,000 pts? Just want to make sure I am understanding this right.

No. It says on page 94 "Each primary detachment in your army may include up to four Heralds of Chaos". That means you can have up to four and no more.

@Squierboy wrote:
@Mushkilla wrote:
I love it!
Very nice to read something genuinely positive.

To be honest I play an army for strategic depth, love reserves and possibilities. The new chaos daemons have loads of options and loads of interesting concepts. A unit of 10 horrors will not lose any damage output until the last model is removed. This makes them great in conjunction with any of the abilities that summon additional models as even if you roll low you get the same damage output for one horror as you do for ten. That makes a unit of horrors behave more like a 10 wound model, only losing effectiveness once all the wounds are removed.

Rewards and tactical flexibility. I have a khorne herald on a a juggernaut with a greater reward. He comes standard with an AP3 power weapon. My opponent has a lot of 2+ save models, I take the default reward to get a +1S AP2 power weapon. My opponent doesn't have any 2+ save models I decide to roll on the table as I already have a AP3 power weapon, fiour out of six of the rolls make me tougher, one of the rolls gives me an AP1 blaster archon (Khorne heralds are BS7), and one makes me wound on 2s and roll 2 dice for penetration.

Slaanesh heralds telepathy mastery level 2, with multiple of these you have a very good chance of getting invisibility or Hallucination both get rid of the no grenade problem. Not to mention all the other spells are awesome even the one that makes you fearless as you can use it to counter the effects of going to ground, and daemons can now go to ground.

The slaanesh banner and the first round of combat, you reduce your opponents WS by D3 meaning even if you are striking last they are only hitting you on 5s.

So many interesting elements of synergy. Kelly seems a lot more apt at writing xenos books, I'm a lot more interested in chaos daemons than the chaos space marines book, it feels like they rebuilt the army from the ground up.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Fri Mar 08 2013, 00:46

I have to say that I generally like what I've heard about the book. The different dynamic will, I think, be good for the game as well as the army, and it really makes me think about dusting off some daemons that I haven't used since 3ed.

On the other hand, I'll take a moment to rage about the warpstorm table - not because it is bad for daemons or psykers or whatever, but because there is a 50% chance of a boardwide effect randomly smiting my dudes, and I hate that! Same deal as that damnable Imhotek... congratulations for cleverly hiding your Raiders in cover, or eliminating all the potential threats in the small window of vision you have left. Although there is no possible way I could shoot you now, I do not care, as I can randomly smite you with lightning/plague/fire/claws/skulls/whatever. Thanks for playing.

I get that it helps to even out the general lack of shooting, and I get that the disadvantage is some daemons getting hit too. But... it just really annoys me.

For what its worth, I suppose the psyker one is similar. Perhaps that one could have been better handled by increasing the chance of a perils for every psyker in the army playing against the daemons, and any that lose their last wound due to perils are replaced by heralds? At least then you would feel as though you contributed to your own demise. I don't get angry about that one as I never use any Smile

Oh well, maybe I should start that new daemon army after all, and get on the right side of the table Razz
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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Fri Mar 08 2013, 04:15

@Mushkilla wrote:
So I take it you like the new daemons too CaptainBalroga?

I have only played one game so far, but it was very, very fun. One of my two Lords of Change killed a Daemon Prince, a Chaos Lord, and a Bloodthirster, in challenges, in that order, without losing a wound. I have loved playing with a Level 3 Psyker to buff my Kabalite Warriors and such, but it's a whole different ballgame when you're using one to BEAT FACE. The ability for my flying chickens (well, I use Cthulhu fish, but whatever) to do more than ineffectually zap things, provide a re-roll bubble, and get challenged by chump Sergeants has me quite giddy. I am vicariously glad for my friends who like non-Tzeentch.

Can I just say the Grimoire and Portalglyph are probably going in every list I make from now on? Those two effects are just nuts! Free Troops for 30 points is insane: if you spawn 4 you're already making value (disregarding opportunity cost of more rewards for your dudes... blah blah blah Free Troops!)

We'll see where it goes competitively; I suspect Slaede will constantly be unearthing gems, though maybe you don't need the link, 'Mush TDC'! Smile

EDIT: I have to echo Creeping Darkness- it felt dirty to use a Storm mechanic that I have hated on myself in the past. It's not as nuts as Imotekh's by far, but it has all the same problems- unearned, unavoidable, random, extends game time through infinite die rolls. A neat mechanic, but probably better suited to a one-turn, automatic hit, one roll on the table, Solar Pulse effect.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Fri Mar 08 2013, 09:19

[quote="CaptainBalroga"]
@Mushkilla wrote:
EDIT: I have to echo Creeping Darkness- it felt dirty to use a Storm mechanic that I have hated on myself in the past. It's not as nuts as Imotekh's by far, but it has all the same problems- unearned, unavoidable, random, extends game time through infinite die rolls. A neat mechanic, but probably better suited to a one-turn, automatic hit, one roll on the table, Solar Pulse effect.

Imotekh costs the same points as Skarbrand and without his Lightning all you really have is a 4+ seize roll. He's pretty pants overall.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Fri Mar 08 2013, 09:29

@CaptainBalroga wrote:
I am vicariously glad for my friends who like non-Tzeentch.

Yeah, I like the fact that each god can put out a solid mono list and khorne has become a real glass cannon that takes some thought to use.

@CaptainBalroga wrote:
We'll see where it goes competitively; I suspect Slaede will constantly be unearthing gems, though maybe you don't need the link, 'Mush TDC'! Smile

Yeah it's a really good blog, though I do wish he would read the rules before laying into my devious first turn charge plan. Very Happy

First turn charge plan: Go second, deploy you large unit of khorne hounds with attached juggernaut herald as close to desired target, scout move 12", survive a turn of shooting and then move 12"(ignoring terrain) charge 2d6" (fleet, ignoring terrain). Man juggernauts being cavalry is so awesome!


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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Fri Mar 08 2013, 18:07

I'm happy that his blog is starting to get some nice attention now: or maye he always had it and people are just commenting more now that there's more to talk about. Either way, he was a great resource for me during the White Dwarf days, and will likely continue to be.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can do that with Karanak and Bloodcrushers as well, if you wanted the Hellblades against a certain opponent


As for Imotekh, YMMV, but playing against him is pretty miserable for me, and I imagine it would be even worse for a light mech army WITHOUT Night Vision. Even 1 hit can down a critical transport, which lets the other anti-mech focus their fire even better to break up your offense. He doesn't need to be on the board for his Storm to work, he can re-roll the die to keep it going with his Cryptek, and people get into arguments about whether it is a shooting attack, does it hit flyers, and what cover saves does it allow, all without solid answers. Not fun! Thankfully the Warp Storm tends not to affect vehicles, though it does have loads of Ignores Cover effects to give hidden squads problems.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Sat Mar 09 2013, 10:58

The new Daemons are no threat at all. At least, mono-Khorne lists aren't. First game against them today, utterly annihilated the daemons. Bad luck on blessings table meant no shooting at all for him and when I killed his flying Bloodthirster T1 he couldn't hurt my flier. Lances will mutilate Bloodcrushers and poison makes all their nasty MCs useless. That's only Khorne though, the other three might be dangerous.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Sat Mar 09 2013, 13:33

I think people will need time to figure out their new playstyle. The way the book is written now I see some nice synergies in the daemon list. I'm not sure how competetive that will be though.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Sat Mar 16 2013, 15:10

I think there's something to be said for a true horde demons army. With enough of the tzeentch units' shooting versus a purely dark eldar list (read: no RoW), whose psychic defense is garbage, would hurt a lot and the target saturation would be rough. Standard dark eldar stuff, I think the greater demons and princes would be easier to handle than the masses. Flesh hounds and seekers look like they would crush whatever pale skinny pirate they touch, too.
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