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 New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Fri Mar 01 2013, 13:28

With the new daemons being released, I was wondering what peoples thoughts were?

So far they sound really unpredictable, lose eternal warrior, and gain daemonic instability, lose their wave deployment. If anything they sound like less of a threat. As a daemon player they sound more chaotic than ever.

Thoughts?


Last edited by Mushkilla on Fri Mar 01 2013, 17:49; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Fri Mar 01 2013, 13:44

With the loss of mandatory deep strike and lots of psykers in a cc oriented army they sound like another Tyranids. Not that I know the rules but acording to rumours.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Fri Mar 01 2013, 14:07

That's the same feeling I'm getting, although they do get some vehicles. They also have a disappointing lack of assault grenades, similar to tyranids.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Fri Mar 01 2013, 16:18

If that is true then just dance them, same as tyranids. Just shoot the few vehicles they have if they are a danger.

It would be like a shooting gallery.
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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Fri Mar 01 2013, 16:36

It seems to me they are going to have a few threats to add to the list already:

-Nurgle Plague Drones
-Flamer Chariot

Plague Drones are Jump Cavalry, 3W and T6 (we don't care so much about T6) so get ready for these guys to be in close combat with you on turn 2 (if the player is smart) especially if (when) you have a few raiders/venoms blow on turn 1 and you have troops on the ground.

The Flamer Chariot is the one thing that MUST die ASAP. We'll see what it is actually armed with, but reports are this thing mathhammers out 7-8 MEQ kills on average per shooting phase.
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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Fri Mar 01 2013, 17:21

its a torrent S5 AP3 flamer, or D3 18" S9 AP2...

They look interesting, they are great at shooting, and have a ton of different options. Plaguebearers are still great objective scorers due to shrouding and maybe FNP. Assault wise khorne is still nice, and seekers are fast. You will see alot of soulgrinders (for AA) since they have skyfire, alota flamer chariots, and a mix of tzeentch and nurgle for troops.

Assulty armies will use the khorne cannon for assault grenades (it lets a unit that charges what it shoots attack at normal Init) and alota blight drones, which are very good tarpits. GDs are still amazing, and you will still see the flyer daemons and princes as well.

Itll be intersting to see how they go, screamers are still good, but flamers got nerfed, and I think your see alota people jump ship

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Fri Mar 01 2013, 17:51

@Shadows Revenge wrote:

Itll be intersting to see how they go, screamers are still good, but flamers got nerfed, and I think your see alota people jump ship

Finally I will be able to use my daemons without feeling ashamed! Shocked

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Fri Mar 01 2013, 18:13

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Shadows Revenge wrote:

Itll be intersting to see how they go, screamers are still good, but flamers got nerfed, and I think your see alota people jump ship

Finally I will be able to use my daemons without feeling ashamed! Shocked

9 months of shame Very Happy. Or how long ago was the wd published
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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Fri Mar 01 2013, 18:28

I agree.
Demons are no threat now, and if anything, look a little weaker.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Sat Mar 02 2013, 14:56

Flamer Chariots, Soulgrinders and Bligth Drones are all nasty, but on the other hand, Greater Daemons only have 5++ saves (except Fateweaver, who has 4++). They can get eighter a 3+ save or 4+ fnp from the random gift, but thta means forfeiting the "primaris" result of a nice weapon. Bloodthirsters have 3+ as standard tho. In general, however, the mighty Greater Daemons of Chaos are as easy to wound to us as a meager Guardsman.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Sat Mar 02 2013, 15:22

btw I would suggest that everyone invests in a Farseer ally with RoW... there are a ton of psychic powers in the book, and every horror is now a psyker...

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Sat Mar 02 2013, 20:44

I just finished a casual game with scanned rules using my Tzeentch Daemons. Lords of Change can be massive beatsticks now- one my mine took down a Daemon Prince, Chaos Lord, and Bloodthirster in that order in challenges, without taking a wound. I didn't even really have to be lucky- Precognition, Misfortune, and Str 8 T 6 were all he needed. The funny thing is I didn't want to be assaulted- I got Grounded and multi-charged!

My much beloved, cute and cuddly Screamers are now much nerfed, but they still did work in close combat, and can now be Prescienced. They will still eat your Venoms, but they won't eat your Incubi, and they are good targets for Dark Lances. You are now safe from Flamers if you mech up, and a 3+ save stymies them. Just to give another hyperbolic example, 25 flame hits on a squad of Marines produced one inflicted wound, and their weapon rule ended up giving the enemy unit Feel no Pain 6+. Horrors are pretty janky, worse by far against the average DE unit, and are pretty much a free Pain Token for an ambitious transported squad. 20 with a Herald and a Locus bumps their shooting attack up to the critical anti-Elf S6, and they can nab Perfect Timing, so Razorwing Flocks beware.

The randomness factor in the codex is cranked up to 11. There are many dice rolls you take for which attack you end up using that has a variable number of shots and an effect after wounds are taken. Then Tzeentch gets reverse randomness with infinite re-rolls. Make sure your opponent goes through them rapidly or the game can drag on. There are many power Greater Rewards to be given out. Venomspam looks effective against the vast majority of the Codex units, the big exception being Nurgle Soul Grinders, which can still be Haywired like any other Battle-Cannon equipped unit with a good cover save. Since the saving throws on Greater Daemons can be so bad, a token Venom Blade can be bad news, and having a token sergeant means you can challenge any big beater who comes looking to sweep your lines and buy time for your dudes to scoot away.

The auto-win option of dropping some absurdly powerful sharks has now been taken away, but the book is not to be trivialized. I suspect some people will suss out whatever combination of Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Divination support will make the best all-comers, and it could be a hard matchup for DE. My two Pain Tokens.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Sat Mar 02 2013, 22:46

@CaptainBalroga wrote:
My much beloved, cute and cuddly Screamers are now much nerfed

What's been nerfed about them? I read they were pretty much unchanged!

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Sat Mar 02 2013, 23:08

Ey Mush,

Wound allocation on the screamers got changed. You now have to randomize as with the Reavers...

Just kidding, don't hit me. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Sat Mar 02 2013, 23:51

The big change with Screamers is they must exchange all attacks for one lamprey bite - as said, they won't eat termies but will wolf down Venoms.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Sun Mar 03 2013, 10:27

That and no eternal warrior.

@tlronin wrote:
Ey Mush,

Wound allocation on the screamers got changed. You now have to randomize as with the Reavers...

Just kidding, don't hit me. Razz

NOOooo! Wink

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Sun Mar 03 2013, 10:41

ok couple of things from actually looking over the dex:

nurgle units LOST FNP, I think it's only available through HQ choices if I've seen that right.

the info about the flaming chariot and the soulgrinders is spot on. Nasty flamers and Flakk for the Soulgrinder S7 AP4 Heavy 4

All units got cheaper and more squishy across the board. Flamers and Screamers got nerfed a lot. Slash works now exactly like our bladevanes and they can choose to lose all normal attacks in CC for one S5 AP2 Armorbane.

They got plenty of ranged options in form of psychic powers and (sometimes random) upgrades for HQ.

New Khorne units are imo not very interesting, Plague drones though are horribly fast, even if they have ugly models.

Horrors do NOT count as psykers but may still cast a psychic power a turn.

You have to roll every turn for warp storm, that can either buff your units, SUMMON a whole new unit of troops, or make your units WORSE (-1 to ward save and such)

There is daemonic instability, works like fantasy: one extra wound with no saves for every point you failed morale at the end of CC by. double six destroy the whole unit automatically, double 1 restores all wounds lost in CC automatically.

I think they have some interesting new options, but they also lost their special deepstrike deployment. I think they are a completely new kind of army, that has a lot of strengths in offense but is very squishy. Along with many MCs and our poison I htink it's and easier matchup for us than for most imperial armies.

Edit: Flamer Chariot is only 10 10 10 open topped though Wink
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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Sun Mar 03 2013, 19:20

The Flaming Chariot is currently broken- the flamer weapons are Heavy, and on the rider, not the vehicle, so you can't move and shoot them, let alone Deep Strike in and drop hot death on your enemies. At least you can shoot 360 degrees since it's open-topped....

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Mon Mar 04 2013, 02:41

@Dogmar wrote:
double six destroy the whole unit automatically

Yields token or no?
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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Mon Mar 04 2013, 08:23

What sort of token should it yield? It says "immediately remove the unit from play". Keep in mind that this check is only made if you lose a CC. There's no other morale check for daemons where this applies.
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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Mon Mar 04 2013, 10:38

I think he meant if we get pain tokens due to the unit being wiped out in that way. Also isn't the flamer considered jet bike/pack so wouldn't it benefit from the relentless rule or am I wrong here?
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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Mon Mar 04 2013, 12:54

The unit is wiped out, so we should get a pain token. The flamer is embarked on a chariot and I can't find any paragraph in the chariot rules of the BGB that says the rider is relentless. Am I missing something? The way I read it the flamer can indeed only fire its weapons if the chariot remained stationary.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Mon Mar 04 2013, 13:43

You're right, the chariot can't move and shoot the heavy flamer (well, the guy onboard can't shoot).
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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Mon Mar 04 2013, 13:46

Seems like an oversight by the designers. The flamer can't disembark the chariot so they probably didn't really think of it as a separate model, but RAW it's still an infantry model embarked in a transport and therefore can't shoot heavy weapon while moving.

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PostSubject: Re: New Daemons? More of a threat than the old ones?   Mon Mar 04 2013, 14:36

well... its a jumppack infantry... so yah it cant shoot. It is a very big oversight though, but even with the RAW argument I wouldn't say someone couldn't move 6 and shoot (12 you cant even snapfire a template anyway... so yah)


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