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 Animus vitae + other special weapon

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Thu Feb 21 2013, 11:59

Agree, we're not lawyers so let's take it easy.

I'll try the Animus Vitae both ways (with and w/o using it as main weapon to obtain the PTs) in friendly games, and for the measly 5 points that it cost I'll let my friends decide whether they allow it or not.

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Ehawther
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Thu Feb 21 2013, 15:39

@RabbitMaster wrote:
... However, it has some rules regarding the fact that the animus is a close combat weapon. In particular, the rulebook says that you can't mix abilities from different weapons and that you have to attack with a weapon in order to benefit from it's abilities...

So in fact, we don't have 1, but 2 conditions :
- The haemy has to kill something in combat (because DE codex)
- If the haemy has multiple CCW, he has to attack with the animus in order to benefit from it's ability (because rulebook).

Does those 2 conditions contradict each other ? No.

If you think that they are in contradiction each other, tell me where. But remember, the DE codex never says that you have (or don't have) to attack with the animus in order to gain benefit of it's ability.
Here is the point where I believe you're making a leap of intention (the two bolded points above):
  1. Does the Haemonculus have multiple CC weapons? Yep (even if you just gave him the Animus Vitae, he would have 2, but lets also give him a Husk Blade, so he has "special" CC weapons.)
  2. Does the Haemonculus have to declare which weapon he is attacking with? Yep, as per the rulebook, which you've pointed out.
  3. If the Haemonculus kills something in combat with any weapon (in this case the Husk Blade or the Animus Vitae) does he benefit from having the Animus Vitae? Yes. So Leadership test and collect pain token if passed.

Point 3 is where we differ and why I feel there is a point to be made here. We are not mixing weapon profiles to gain the benefits, like say those of a Husk Blade and a Mindphase Gauntlet:

"I have a Husk Blade and a Mindphase Gauntlet; all my attacks are AP2 and if you get hit you have the take a Leadership test and Strength test. If you fail those you can't attack."

Instead it is like this:

"I have a Husk Blade and the Animus Vitae; I'll attack with my Husk Blade so my attacks are AP2 and have instant death. Combat occurs. I killed a model in combat, so I now take a Leadership test and if I pass that test then I get a pain token because I bear the Animus Vitae."

The BRB says you can't mix weapon profiles, and the Animus Vitae's profile does not state it has to be used to gain its benefit. You simply have to bear it to gain its benefit. Its like having splinter pistol in CC (yay +1A) but instead this time its +1A and a potential bonus. So combat ends, with you legally attacking with only one weapon profile (Husk Blade) and if you kill something you get to take a Leadership test and possibly collect a pain token from that test. Just for having the Animus Vitae.

@Eldur wrote:
Agree, we're not lawyers so let's take it easy.

I'll try the Animus Vitae both ways (with and w/o using it as main weapon to obtain the PTs) in friendly games, and for the measly 5 points that it cost I'll let my friends decide whether they allow it or not.

Point and case. Play the thing how you want to play it. I really see it one way, while others may see this differently. I wont push this further, but I do believe there is a point to be made here. And also a basic contradiction of the "standard" ruleset for CC weapons, which RabbitMaster is point out. Thus the need for an FAQ (speaking of which, have we added it to the thread yet?) Edit: Added it to the FAQ questions thread here.

It's 5 points. For pain tokens. Maybe you'd get a few a game and would it be nice to have a few extra pain tokens for your squads? Sure. But I am going to have a Cronos in my list anyways - I just really liked the idea of having two candy (pain token) dispensers.


Last edited by Ehawther on Thu Feb 21 2013, 16:38; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Added this question to the FAQ thread.)
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RabbitMaster
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Thu Feb 21 2013, 18:28

Wow you made a big edit of your message, I didn't see it till now =) However, it's a good summary of the problem.

Quote :
We are not mixing weapon profiles to gain the benefits [...]
You are exactly saying that. You say that if the haemy has 2 weapons, he can attack with one (the huskblade) and still gain benefit of the special rule of the other (the animus). But the BRB says you can't do that.

I know that it won't convince you right now. But if it can help, we have a second identical case in our own codex that has been clarified by a FaQ : the djin blade.

The djin blade says that the bearer gain 2 additionnal attacks, without further conditions. It's really like the animus, it does not says you have to attack with it, you just have to bear it. However, you can't benefit from this ability if you are using another weapon (see FaQ).
Why is that ? Because the rulebook say you can't mix weapon's abilities. Even if the djin blade (or the animus) only requires you to be the bearer, it's nevertheless a weapon ability and you can't mix it with another weapon's ability.

P.S.: It's a good thing you added it to the FaQ thread Smile

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Thu Feb 21 2013, 18:39

You could easily argue the other way with the grey knight codex:

Quote :
Q: Does a Nemesis Dreadknight armed with a Nemesis greatsword
have 4 Attacks at Strength 10 that, because of the Nemesis
greatsword, can re-roll To Hit, To Wound and Armour Penetration
rolls?(p54)
A: Yes.

In this FAQ the Deadknight benefits from the greatsword (extra attack, re-roll to hit, wound and armour pen) and the doom first (S10).

At the end of the day because it says the "bearer" by RAW you can do it. However I think it should be FAQed so that you can't do it. Anyway this argument is going in circles.

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RabbitMaster
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Thu Feb 21 2013, 18:48

Yep, we pointed this particular case sooner in the thread. It's sad to see that GW has 2 different answers to the same question.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Thu Feb 21 2013, 18:58

Yup, but that's GW, either way I have added the question to the FAQ thread. Very Happy

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Ehawther
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Thu Feb 21 2013, 19:32

@RabbitMaster wrote:
Wow you made a big edit of your message, I didn't see it till now =) However, it's a good summary of the problem.

Yeah I was sitting there re-reading my post to catch spelling mistakes and everything just kept tumbling around in my brain. I had to put one more layer on this issue.

Mushkilla - thanks for starting the FAQ thread and "moderating" the questions. It would be nice to see something come of it in upcoming FAQ's (which have been happening at a really nice pace so far.)

/fingerscrossed
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Thu Feb 21 2013, 19:44

Fingers crossed. Will give it a few more weeks before we send it off. See if they change reaver randomization and fix the moving through models rules that we spammed GW about first. If they do it's a good sign. Very Happy

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Animus vitae + other special weapon   Fri Feb 22 2013, 09:32

I sent this one off to the GW FAQ address a few days ago. Suspect it will come back as "No" (if they answer it at all) but they damn sure won't alter the Dreadknight or Defiler FAQ answers to maintain consistency!

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