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TyG17
Slave


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Join date : 2013-02-04
Location : Illinois

PostSubject: The newest Archon   Mon Feb 04 2013, 04:32

So the whispers of Commorragh finally got to me. And now I am the proud leader of a ragtag group from the Kabal of the Flayed Skull.

I have had 1 battleforce made up and started painting for a while then got sidetracked from them for a while but came back around to starting them up for a new campaign with my group of friends (or should I say future slaves). I have now picked up a second battleforce, archon, Lelith, haemonculus, and a venom. Any advice from the wise Kabals around here would be appreciated. I am not new to 40k and have looked around the forums here for a little bit to give me some direction but still wanted to introduce myself and get some friendly tips.
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Grokfog
Slave
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Location : sheffield

PostSubject: Re: The newest Archon   Mon Feb 04 2013, 13:44

Well, welcome to the Dark City Very Happy I'm pretty new here myself, but the community here is easily the most helpful I've seen in years. Hopefully someone with more experience will be along soon to give you some advice Very Happy
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Painbiro
Kabalite Warrior


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Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : In your nightmares

PostSubject: Re: The newest Archon   Tue Feb 05 2013, 08:51

Firstly, welcome to the Dark City. Hope you enjoy your time here!

Secondly, DE have three main factions: Kabals, Wych Cults and Haemonculi covens. Of the three, Kabalite is the most competitive but if played well all three can be dangerous. With what you have, you seem to have all the gear to run a decently competitive list. Since you're not new to 40K itself, I take it you know how devastating haywire Wyches can be. Warriors in Raiders with splinter racks are also nasty. The most important thing though is to do what you want to do, and most importantly, have fun!

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Dark Eldar? Grimdark? What a silly idea. The Adventures of I-XV7-DM
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Back after hiatus. For Commorragh!
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Braseye
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Join date : 2012-11-04
Location : Sussex

PostSubject: Re: The newest Archon   Tue Feb 05 2013, 10:23

Hi TyG17

Welcome to the boards! So if I understand correctly your force consists of:

An archon
Lelith (could use her as a succubus)
Homunculus
6x Reaver Jet bikes
20x Wyches
20x Kabalite warriors
1x Venom
2x Raiders

This is a good solid base to start with. I would suggest running the jetbikes in a squad of six; keep them hidden and use blade vane and cluster caltrops attacks to pull the teeth out dangerous units.

You could use five of your kabalite warriors as Trueborn (blasterborn to be specific, which consist of four blasters and either a splinter rifle or carbine) mount them in the venom with dual splinter cannons and use these to hunt tanks or units that absolutely, positively have to die quickly. Another use for five Trueborn are splinterborn (2 splinter cannon and three shard carbines) again mounted in a dual splinter cannon Venom, this puts out an unholy amount of AI firepower it not even funny; it's hilarious.

The Kabalite warriors can be run in groups of 10 with splinter cannon. Feel free to add a blaster for extra punch but I have the most awful like luck with the blaster, it either misses or fails to wound.

The Wyches should be mounted in a raider to help get them into CC as fast as possible. Always give them Haywire grenades for vehicle hunting. Add a Hekatrix in with a Phantasm grenade launcher with your choice of CC weapons (venom blades are great and cheap, I also like the idea of a power spear). Add in a Homunculus for a pain token straight away is a god idea too.

Lelith I can't comment on as I have never played her.

As for the Archon, there are so many builds look around the boards for ideas on what you would like him to do. You want him to tackle IC's and MC's? Equip the soul trap, shadow field and huskblade/venomblade combo. Keep him cheap and get him to butcher infantry with a power weapo0n and venom blade but whatever you take always remember to take the shadow field, also for 10 points equip combat drugs, they are great. With your current list put him the Wyches and start killing things in CC as fast possible.

For now I would put dark lances on the raiders, just for the added vehicle hunting capabilities.

One important thing to remember is to take out the enemy piecemeal, destroy the unit entirely (get those all important paint tokens) then move onto the next.

That's all I can think of for the time being, have a look around the boards for tips, tricks and strategies.
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TyG17
Slave


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PostSubject: Re: The newest Archon   Tue Feb 05 2013, 11:14

Thanks everyone for the advice Smile

Right now the list I am milling over is

HQ
Archon Combat Drugs, Huskblade, Kabalite Armor, Plasma Grenades, Shadow field, Soul-trap, Splinter Pistol
Succubus Agoniser, Splinter Pistol

Elites
Kabalite Trueborn
3x Trueborn 2x Dark Lance, Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Trueborn
3x Trueborn 2x Dark Lance, Splinter Rifle
Venom Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon

Troops
Kabalite Warriors
9x Kabalite Warrior 9x Splinter Rifle
Sybarite Splinter Rifle
Raider Disintegrator, Splinter Racks
Wyches
Wych with Wych Weapon (22pts)
Haywire grenades, Hydra Gauntlets, Plasma Grenades
8x Wyches 8x Haywire grenades, 8x Plasma Grenades, 8x Splinter Pistol and Close Combat Weapon
Raider Disintegrator, Nightshield
Wyches
Wych with Wych Weapon Haywire grenades, Hydra Gauntlets, Plasma Grenades
8x Wyches 8x Haywire grenades, 8x Plasma Grenades, 8x Splinter Pistol and Close Combat Weapon
Raider Disintegrator, Nightshield

Fast Attack (156pts)
Reaver Jetbikes 2x Heat Lance, 6x Jetbikes

Heavy Support
Cronos Parasite Engine Close Combat Weapon, Spirit Syphon, Spirit Vortex
Ravager Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Flickerfield
Ravager Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Flickerfield

I am thinking about using an HQ in each wych unit and keeping the trueborn out of the venoms for more heavy firepower
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Braseye
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PostSubject: Re: The newest Archon   Wed Feb 06 2013, 14:22

Personally I wouldn't run Trueborn with Dark Lances, they are too expensive and limit one of our best strengths; manoeuvrability. I would recommend putting the dark lances in the venom as you can only snap shot them if you move. So if you do run them put them in cover in the back field. Put blasterborn in the venom and have fast, mobile firepower.
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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: The newest Archon   Wed Feb 06 2013, 22:49

@TyG17 wrote:
HQ
Archon Combat Drugs, Huskblade, Kabalite Armor, Plasma Grenades, Shadow field, Soul-trap, Splinter Pistol
Succubus Agoniser, Splinter Pistol

Ok, pretty much all-in with the archon. Needs to get to combat ASAP & kill stuff. Sometimes there just isn't a target for the huskblade/soultrap combo & you end up carting around a very expensive power weapon (AP2 still pretty good though), but that's a little gamble you take (not to mention the 'fingers-crossed' combat drug roll).

Succubus is nice and cheap ...but do you really need 2 HQs in this size force? She's ok if you drop some wyches to make room, since she's effectively adding 3 wounds to a wych squad, you can drop 2-3 wyches and still have a good unit with a decent fighty character, and save a few points.

@TyG17 wrote:
Elites
Kabalite Trueborn
3x Trueborn 2x Dark Lance, Splinter Rifle
Kabalite Trueborn
3x Trueborn 2x Dark Lance, Splinter Rifle
Venom Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon

Yep, fine. As long as you can find cover for them. ADL+gun can be an option to take with these guys if you want some anti-air & 4+ cover.

@TyG17 wrote:
Troops
Kabalite Warriors
9x Kabalite Warrior 9x Splinter Rifle
Sybarite Splinter Rifle
Raider Disintegrator, Splinter Racks
Wyches
Wych with Wych Weapon (22pts)
Haywire grenades, Hydra Gauntlets, Plasma Grenades
8x Wyches 8x Haywire grenades, 8x Plasma Grenades, 8x Splinter Pistol and Close Combat Weapon
Raider Disintegrator, Nightshield
Wyches
Wych with Wych Weapon Haywire grenades, Hydra Gauntlets, Plasma Grenades
8x Wyches 8x Haywire grenades, 8x Plasma Grenades, 8x Splinter Pistol and Close Combat Weapon
Raider Disintegrator, Nightshield

Those 2 wych raiders plus HQs are a big target that should be at the top of your opponent's target priority. They die in droves when the raiders go down, so be prepared for that. Hekatrix upgrades would be useful to accept challenges when necessary. Don't really need hydra gauntlets - your HQs will provide plenty of kills.
Sybarite upgrade for warriors is so-so. Useful Ld boost for objective holding, but if you're looking to save points this should be dropped early on. A splinter cannon (with 10 men) allows them to be effective when disembarked (or when the raider is wrecked).

@TyG17 wrote:
Fast Attack (156pts)
Reaver Jetbikes 2x Heat Lance, 6x Jetbikes

Pretty good little tank hunting unit, but lacks punch in other areas. Upgrading to 9 makes it a real threat to almost anything, but then it's a big target too.

@TyG17 wrote:
Heavy Support
Cronos Parasite Engine Close Combat Weapon, Spirit Syphon, Spirit Vortex
Ravager Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Flickerfield
Ravager Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Flickerfield

FF on the ravagers is a luxury upgrade you can do without. Just leave them naked.

What's your plan for the chronos? It won't be able to keep pace with the raiders or bikes and seems an odd addition that doesn't really fit. It's also underwhelming in assault. It works best in concert with other coven units (wracks, talos etc). If you want a good area denial monstrous creature that can still shoot at range and is lethal up-close get a talos instead. However, they do still work best when used in multiples.

I think overall you need more troops, so swap out a few upgrades - maybe drop an HQ & the chronos - and get some more warriors/wyches plus transports. If you're interested in the scary monsters, go all out and get 2-3 talos, then make sure your long-range AT is catered for in other areas (more lanceborn maybe).

I know you don't have the miniatures for all these suggestions, but I hope this helps you a bit!

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"Cruelty has a Human Heart" - William Blake
99% of war is killing time. The rest is the killing time.
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tlronin
Wych


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PostSubject: Re: The newest Archon   Thu Feb 07 2013, 07:43

Above all, a cool cold welcome to The Dark City.

Then 1st a question about your list. Is it correct that 1 of the trueborn squads isn't purchased with a Venom?

After this my standard question when new Archons find our city. Are your questions competition related or fun related?
If it's fun, then do whatever the hell you want. We have a fairly 'dartboard' codex which, as long as you keep AI/AT in check, gives you a fun list to play.
If it's competitive you'll notice some units quickly losing their interest. You' ll notice people building in redundancy to increase effectiveness. Plus you' ll notice people utilising DE's speed + target saturation to compensate the biggest glaring weakness (S3, T3 and AV10). Hence the 'glass cannon'. Deal punches, but don't be dealt punches.

Seeing your suggestion for your list it seems you already noticed utilising speed is a good solid option. With the models you have right now this list is fine.

HQ
Seem fine by me. The general rule is, don't put too much stuff on 1 model even though all the toys sound cool. There's always the problem of a T3 guy dying and losing all your fancy toys in 1 go. But you didn't, so good solid choice. I agree with the notion if you need 2 HQs though. Could save you points.

Elite
I see you' re putting trueborn with 2 DLs in a ruin in your backfield. If you are prepared for them to die turn 2 or 3 then that's fine. A solid option for the cheapest way to sneak DLs into your list. The problem is if your opponent can stay out of 36" of these guys and they have no target. That is why we usually end up with 3 or 4 trueborn w/ blaster in a Venom. A highly mobile 24" threatrange on full BS or 30" on BS1 (unless you disembark).
Putting the odd Warrior blob in a ruin in your backfield with a DL or a SC is not wrong per se, but more difficult to play IMHO. Putting them in Raiders and/or Venoms seems more of a natural choice for DE.

Heavy Support
I' m going to skip to heavy support to have an excuse to talk about synergy. In this list the Chronos sticks out like a sore thumb. Maybe if you explain a bit what your plan was with the Chronos?
If you'd leave it out you'd have points for a those blasterborn in Venoms.
I disagree with leaving Ravagers naked though. I usually equip them with night shields (plus FFs if I can spare the points). Increases their survivability dramatically.

Troops:
Next to speed DE needs target saturation to survive. Losing half of your Wyches to a ' destroyed' result on your Raider is no fun. People have succes with the setup you presented, but i personally like to see if I really can't split some squads up and put the other half in another Raider or Venom. They destroy 1 Raider, the other 1 keeps coming! Plus you' ll increase the number of scoring troops you have.
P.S.: Why does it say Wych with Wyches weapons 22 pts? What's that?
I noticed you've bought disintegrator on every Raider. Sometimes I think I have enough DLs and then I still don't do enough damage. So it' ll need to be tested in a few games. But you might want to consider changing the DLs back on the Raiders.

Fast attack:
As already been mentioned, if you really want to use Reavers it's from experience that to maximize their effectiveness you need 9. Or leave them out of your list all 2gether, they are expensive. But if you can run 9 they can be a real pain in the butt! Always fun to play.

Ok, answer the few questions I had and enjoy musing and plotting. Wink

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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: The newest Archon   Thu Feb 07 2013, 20:14

@tlronin wrote:
I disagree with leaving Ravagers naked though. I usually equip them with night shields (plus FFs if I can spare the points). Increases their survivability dramatically.

I'd better clarify my point about ravager upgrades.

Night shields are actually good for avoiding shorter ranged weapons - rapid fire, melta - but long ranged weapons are rarely troubled. A ravager is a backfield shooting unit with medium-long range shooting & so is generally targetted by 48"+ shooting for most of the game - and the NS won't help with this. Pre-measure and stay out of range when you can, and rely on your jink save to help when you can't. I have occasionally sent my ravagers forward and NS have come in useful, but mostly they just get gipped by railguns, autocannons, missile launchers, and other stuff very tricky to avoid at range. Perhaps you have had a different experience?

Flickerfields are pretty useless in 6th ed - especially for a ravager - you get jink saves for just moving and can easily obtain a save at the beginning of a game by hiding it behind terrain or other vehicles (like venoms who have FF by default).

I can understand wanting to increase their survivability, I just don't think it would be a dramatic advantage, and definitely not worth the points for both upgrades.

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"Cruelty has a Human Heart" - William Blake
99% of war is killing time. The rest is the killing time.
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: The newest Archon   Thu Feb 07 2013, 22:37

Agreed. I'm not a fan of upgrades on the Ravager. Maybe if I'm done with my list and have 30 points left over I'll toss NS on (maybe, but honestly I'd probably spend those points elsewhere). As Squierboy talks about it's easy to do without NS/FF on a Ravager (mostly because they often don't do anything) and putting both on a Ravager raises it's price noticeably (cheap cost for how much it gives is one of the Ravager's best features).
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TyG17
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PostSubject: Re: The newest Archon   Thu Feb 07 2013, 23:22

Thanks for all the advice. Originally I had the flickerfields on the ravagers for the cases that I end up going second but you make a good point about just keeping them behind cover enough to provide the same 5+ cover. I also understand the need to get more troop options and keeping them cheap.

As for the composition of my army I tend to be semi-competitive. I dont try be WAAC, but I do like have a fast synergistic competitive army.

@tlronin wrote:
P.S.: Why does it say Wych with Wyches weapons 22 pts? What's that?
I used Battlescribe to make the list and I thought I went through and got rid of all the point listings like that but I must have missed one

I had the chronos in there to hopefully get some easy pain tokens but I understand your concern about the monstrous creature not being able to keep up.

So here is my revised list:
HQ
Archon Combat Drugs, Huskblade, Kabalite Armor, Plasma Grenades, Shadow field , Soul-trap, Splinter Pistol

Elites
Kabalite Trueborn 4x Trueborn 4x Blaster
Venom Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon

Troops
Kabalite Warriors 9x Kabalite Warrior 9x Splinter Rifle Sybarite Splinter Rifle
Raider Dark Lance, Splinter Racks

Kabalite Warriors 9x Kabalite Warrior 9x Splinter Rifle Sybarite Splinter Rifle
Raider Dark Lance, Splinter Racks

Wyches 9x Wyches 9x Haywire grenades, 9x Plasma Grenades, 9x Splinter Pistol and Close Combat Weapon
Raider Dark Lance

Wyches 5x Wyches 5x Haywire grenades, 5x Plasma Grenades, 5x Splinter Pistol and Close Combat Weapon
Venom Flickerfield, Splinter Cannon

Fast Attack (234pts)
Reaver Jetbikes 3x Heat Lance, 9x Jetbikes

Heavy Support
Ravager Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Ravager Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Ravager Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance
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tlronin
Wych


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PostSubject: Re: The newest Archon   Fri Feb 08 2013, 07:54

@Squierboy

- Nightshield: Everything of 48" and above doesn't care about the nightshield that's true, but everything below 48" is something my ravagers don't care about. Without NS you' ll have to care about lesser ranges aswell. Which means more units that can target your Ravager.
Plus the occasional deepstriking unit with a melta weapon (or other cool stuff) doesn't have the benefit with a NS.They' ll spend more turns destroying the Ravagers which keeps your other units save.

- Flickerfield: More often than not I find myself in the situation where coversaves don't matter and I' ll have to rely on an invunerable save. Plus I'm less scared to jump into areaterrain (like a ruin) for a better coversave (in situations where it does matter), because I can get my 5++ save against the dangerous terrain test.
Or the occasional deepstriking (droppod) unit that comes close and assaults the Ravager... I' ll still have my 5++ save. More turns spend on killing the Ravager.

And the more turns they spend on killing the ravager, the less they are busy killing my scoring units. The points combined saved on leaving the NSs and FFs home is at best a Venom with 5 Warriors or something (if you puzzle hard enough)? Well I guess that depends on the player. Do you want 1 more target for target saturation and survive that way, or keep more stuff alive so they actually do stuff? I guess there's no clear right or wrong...

@Murkglow: See my reply to squierboy. Smile

@TyG17:

Is battlescribe old? Wych weapons don't exist anymore. Wink

Yeah that's what we all want from the Cronos. Alas those easy pain tokens seem to become pain tokens deserved the hard way. Lol.

Well I don't know about the others, but I'd say that's a highly competitive list. The only thing I can comment on now is that you might get bored with this list as you go along, haha... Then it's time to add the odd unit here and there. Wink Good luck on your raids new archon!

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Squierboy
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PostSubject: Re: The newest Archon   Fri Feb 08 2013, 18:32

@TyG17

Your new list looks pretty solid, certainly good enough to have a go with and tweak at your leisure. Like tlronin said, if you get bored there are plenty of still very competitive alternative units to give the army some colour....Eldar allies, harlequins, beasts, grotesques, wracks as troops, some of the special HQ choices and so forth. You need never get bored!

I will say that I think you should find room for a hekatrix in the big wych unit to deal with cheeky challenges for your archon. And maybe an arena champ for the reavers to keep them in the game longer, but i'm just nitpicking really.

All the best with your raids... and bring back plenty of biscuits (and slaves I guess)

@tlronin

You make some valid points. It comes down to personal experience and if FF have saved your hide before then good for you. I just think that cover-ignoring weapons are usually too weak to bother AV11 (blastmasters & perfect timing psychic power accepted!). And assault...well, if you get assaulted something has gone wrong!
Same with NS, if they really do save you vs deep strikers then that's cool. A well-informed opponent won't be fooled into going for them if they know they'll be out of range, but it may work on people who have a sketchy knowledge of our codex. Frankly, I'm happy for deep strikers to go for my ravagers - they may completely fluff their rolls - and leave my troops intact. But weapon load-out is probably the biggest influence on that decision....no deep striking infantry unit wants three disintegrators pointing menacing at them! So maybe NS for the disi ravager?

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99% of war is killing time. The rest is the killing time.
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