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pantofful
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PostSubject: power weapon question   Thu Jan 31 2013, 20:33

Feeling this is a stupid question, but its bugging me, and my buddy is borrowing my rulebook:

When you equip your character with a"power weapon", you have to choose from a list that at least
Includes:

- power sword
- power axe
- power lance
- power maul

Is a power fist on this list of options, or isnit its own seoerate category?
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Zaakath
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Thu Jan 31 2013, 20:42

Seperate category;

Normal PW is only AP3, while the PF is AP2 and 2x Str. Typically costs a fair bit more also.
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Balisong
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Thu Jan 31 2013, 22:48

For DE the only only ones from that list that really make sense are the Maul and the Lance.

The Sword's only advantage is AP3 and with our lower strength we are better off spending the extra points to get the Agonizer which wounds on 4+ and is AP3. A lot of people forget that the Electrocorrosive Whip is also AP3 as well, but is much more situational.

The Maul is nice for the +2 Strength especially on a Hekatrix or Succubi. Get 2 Pain Tokens and roll +1 Str on Drugs and that's 7 Strength! AP4 is still decent on most Troops.

The Lance is better than the Sword due to the St +1 and AP3 on the charge, but I always take it with a Venom Blade if possible for later rounds.

The Axe looks attractive due to the AP2, but the Unwieldy aspect pretty much means we won't be able to take advantage of it due to it eliminating our initiative advantage. It's only somewhat usable when used in conjunction with a mindphase gauntlet or concussive weapon. But even then it's only good against solitary opponents.



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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Thu Jan 31 2013, 23:18

Perhaps the OP would also benefit from 'why' the powerfist is in it's own seprate category. It's because it has it's own description. That list is for when it simply says 'powerweapon' .

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Fri Feb 01 2013, 00:20

@Balisong wrote:
For DE the only only ones from that list that really make sense are the Maul and the Lance.

I disagree.

Axe can be a good option for Haemons (if you feel like decking one out to lead some Grots maybe) as their I isn't all that impressive so the Unwieldy part isn't as big a deal for them (and you certainly don't need Mindphase Gauntlets or Concussive to make use of it).

At the same time I'm not nearly as big a fan of Maul. AP4 doesn't help vs Marines which is where you really care about armor and +2S isn't as useful when we can just buy a Venom Blade and wound on a 2+ all the time (Maul will only get you S5 usually which isn't even a 2+ to wound alot of the time) for 1/3 the cost. Being able to hit vehicles isn't all that impressive either when the character will usually be S5 (just pay 5 points for Haywire Grenades if you want that option, they'll do a much better job. Heck a Venom Blade + Haywire Grenades together are still cheaper then a Power Maul).
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Fri Feb 01 2013, 09:14

A powerfist is a seperate catagory for the fact that it has its own set of rules and have been around in the game since its creation. Take for example the space marine codex, you pay 15 pts for a power weapon, but 25 pts for a powerfist.

The list of "types" of power weapons is a 6th ed thing and as for older books (like ours) you can choose. Newer books either have the ability to choose, or specifically give you one (like deathwing knights which specifically say power maul)

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pantofful
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Fri Feb 01 2013, 12:11

that's what I thought I remembered, that a power fist was a seperate category, but I wasn't sure.

That said, I have used a power axe quite successfully at times to crack open terminator & 2+ necrons... most of the unit isn't characters, so they can't target my archon, so he still gets all his attacks, but with a better strength than a huskblade (and honestly it's usually that I just run a few points short the the huskblade).
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Balisong
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Fri Feb 01 2013, 18:23

I could see it working well on the Archon with the Shadowfield.

I've tried it on Haemies and they've never survived long enough to use it in CC.
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curebdc
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Sun Feb 03 2013, 13:23

yeah i just dont see axe being that usable for us. If i see 2+ armour the last thing I think about is combat (unless I have incubi)... I just use poison, or some dark lance if theres nothing better to shoot at. Of course all of that is only if I cannot avoid it, which usually I can.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Sun Feb 03 2013, 13:31

@Balisong wrote:
I've tried it on Haemies and they've never survived long enough to use it in CC.

They have a 2+ look out sir, as long as you have a squad leader (aberation or Acothyst) to accept any challenges your opponent might send your way the haemi can hack away with his 4 S5 AP2 axe attacks all day long (assuming he gets the charge). You don't take the axe for AP2 you take it because it's a +1S power weapon on a low initiative model (I4) that doesn't have plasma grenades in a unit that doesn't have access to power weapons.


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Balisong
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Sun Feb 03 2013, 14:40

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Balisong wrote:
I've tried it on Haemies and they've never survived long enough to use it in CC.

They have a 2+ look out sir, as long as you have a squad leader (aberation or Acothyst) to accept any challenges your opponent might send your way the haemi can hack away with his 4 S5 AP2 axe attacks all day long (assuming he gets the charge). You don't take the axe for AP2 you take it because it's a +1S power weapon on a low initiative model (I4) that doesn't have plasma grenades in a unit that doesn't have access to power weapons.


Even with Look out Sir I haven't had one survive to use the axe yet. I have yet to run it with Grotes yet though as I paint slow as heck...

I would honestly have to say that the AP2 at 10 pts is the Only reason to take the Axe. As far as strength bonus to hit vehicles (which is what I assume since you mention grenades) the Power Maul is better as it's +2 Str, or the Power Lance as you get the +1 on the charge and both are without the Initiative penalty. Against high toughness units the Venom Blade, scissor hands, flesh gauntlet or Agonizer are simply better choices due to their ability to wound at a set number.

I do plan to give the Axe another go when I finish my Grotes. I have a list made up with 6 Grots w Abberation, 3 Haemies (1 Ancient) boarding my tantalus on Round 1.

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Sun Feb 03 2013, 16:00

Why would he be talking about Vehicles? He mentions that Haemons don't have grenades to point out that they would strike last anyway if they charge a unit in cover (because they lack assault grenades). Personally I don't think the Lance nor the Maul are good on a Haemon (well the Maul is good if you know you're not fighting Marines/enemies with a 3+ or better save). The Axe can cut through marine armor while also giving a strength boost to help wound.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Sun Feb 03 2013, 23:16

You control model placement. You control wound allocation. If your haemi isn't in base contact then he can't get wounds allocated to him. If he is in base contact then you can allocate wounds to other models in base contact. The 2+ look out sir is only the last line of defence. The only time he won't get to swing is if your squad is getting wiped before they can even attack.

@Balisong wrote:
Against high toughness units the Venom Blade, scissor hands, flesh gauntlet or Agonizer are simply better choices due to their ability to wound at a set number.

The venom blade doesn't bring anything to the unit as it's already loaded to the brim with poison. The scissor hands are wast of time as the venom blade is just better. The flesh gauntlet is only worth considering on an aberration because they have the strength to make it worth while and don't have access to agonisers. The agoniser is twice the price of the power axe and is less effective against T3 models, and less effective against T4 models on the charge (and is equally effective when not charging). Again initiative is irrelevant as if you are charging against a competent opponent they will be in cover and you will be striking at I1 because they have no assault grenades. The one thing wracks are not reliable against is MEQ and the power axe gives them a reliable MEQ kill or two a round. Not to mention the haemonculus should be able to take on most squad leaders in a challenge as long as he still has two wounds.

The axe helps sure up one of the units weaknesses, unlike the other options. At least that's how I see it. Smile

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Balisong
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Sun Feb 03 2013, 23:55

I concede that your advice makes sense if you are using Wracks or Grots, but that's not what the OP is focusing on.

However, I tend to run mine with Wychs or having them join up with a group of Kabalites (Armed with a Hex Rifle) after dropping their pain token off to another unit.

In both cases the Units do have Assault Grenades or are the ones being charged and thus the Initiative Penalty on the Axe really is wasteful.

I do know one of the reasons why my Haemies die is the way I use them. When the vehicle the Wychs are on explodes I will often pass one or two of the wounds caused onto the Haemie in order to maintain the Unit size and increase their likelihood of wrecking things in an Assault. I will often let the Haemie soak up 1-2 wounds caused by overwatch as the Wychs armor saves are almost always negated.

As I typically run MSU this usually leaves the Hekatrix to accept the Challenge and 2-3 Wychs left for the CC. The Wychs do their Damage, I then let them suck up the wounds before the final one that Kills the Haemie.

Local Meta has people running large troop units to get the special weapons and or Tyranids, Orcs, and IG where they are just simply outnumbered. So there is usually enough wounds left where one gets through to kill the Haemie before Init 1 hits. Thus by making sure they strike first, or at the same initiative I am getting the most out of them that I can before they die.

While it seems wasteful, the strategy has been working and has turned several games around for me.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Mon Feb 04 2013, 00:34

@Balisong wrote:
In both cases the Units do have Assault Grenades or are the ones being charged and thus the Initiative Penalty on the Axe really is wasteful.

Assault grenades only affect models, not units, so the haemi will still strike at I1 as he doesn't have assault grenades.

I can understand using the haemi for pain tokens, absorbing vehicle explosions and overwatch. But then why give him any weapons at all? To each his own I guess. Very Happy

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Mon Feb 04 2013, 04:11

For me its husk blades or agonisers.
Maybe, lanxces at a push.

Even a haemi has high initiative meta comparative

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Balisong
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Mon Feb 04 2013, 06:19

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Balisong wrote:
In both cases the Units do have Assault Grenades or are the ones being charged and thus the Initiative Penalty on the Axe really is wasteful.

Assault grenades only affect models, not units, so the haemi will still strike at I1 as he doesn't have assault grenades.

I can understand using the haemi for pain tokens, absorbing vehicle explosions and overwatch. But then why give him any weapons at all? To each his own I guess. Very Happy

Phantasm Grenade launcher on both units... That gives the entire Unit Assault and Defensive Grenades...

I only ever giver the Haemi the Venom Blade for 5, a one-shot war-gear and either the Hex Rifle or Liquifier. Always use the one-shot up ahead of time, the Liquifier before Assault (& Overwatch) and the Hex Rifle from Long range.

He always makes his points back. Almost always nearly or easily doubling them.
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Mon Feb 04 2013, 14:56

I think we all agree the Venom Blade is a good option (the only one I would consider since I pretty much never recommend Power Weapons for Dark Eldar) sure but that's not what the thread is about (ie Power Weapons). Anyway you're giving specific reason why the power axe might not be optimal for your unit set up while Mush/I am giving reasons why it's a good fit for the Haemon in a general sense. The point is that the Power Axe is worth considering (and that's all I was disagreeing with you on, well ok and I disagree with the Maul being very good but anyway...). After all not everyone will be running a melee Haemon in a heavily upgraded wych squad.
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Mon Feb 04 2013, 22:55

Agreed with Murkglow, the only thing I was really disagreeing with was this:

@Balisong wrote:
For DE the only only ones from that list that really make sense are the Maul and the Lance.

The venom blade is more useful than the maul as S5 against vehicles isn't anything to write home about, and I would rather wound T4s on 2s than 3s and re-rollable 2s than 2s against T3.

The Spear only really becomes an option on units that will always get the charge or have hit and run, and is a liability on units without fleet.

Out of the power weapons the axe is the most appealing on the haemonculus as they are only initiative 4 (and more often than not don't have grenades) and it boosts their Strength making it on par or better than the agoniser (against T3-T4).

Sorry for the confusion. Smile

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PaulT
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Wed Feb 06 2013, 02:11

I'm not getting something, Dark Eldar don't have axes or spears or fits, Spear? we have swords and whips when it comes to power weapons right?
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Wed Feb 06 2013, 02:17

Whenever a power weapon is referred to in the codex you can model it as one of the types given in the rulebook. You are not restricted to just the weapons provided with the models, as long as you show it on the model.

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PaulT
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Wed Feb 06 2013, 02:25

Oh I see, How does one show it on the model if its not actually modeled on him/her/it. I have always liked to play wysiwyg
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Wed Feb 06 2013, 02:46

It should be modelled. Othervice it doesn't show.

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: power weapon question   Wed Feb 06 2013, 03:12

You'd need to model it yourself. If you want a Power Axe for example then you're going to need to make one, take an axe from a different unit and add it on, or describe it as a weapon you do have. For example, while a Power Axe might look like an Axe, it could also look like a Glaive or a Halberd or a large thick bladed weapon. As long as you tell your opponent before the game starts what it's meant to be they're probably not going to be too picky.
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