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Roy89
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PostSubject: Ravager yes or not   Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:15 am

Hi everyone,
I was thinking about ravager...
I saw that everyone use ravager and for this reason I would ask you why do you prefer to use a ravager?
This is just my point of view:
Point 105
With NS and TG 125

Now for 3 DL,don't give me wrong, but I think is too expensive. It can move up 6'' and shoot, this is good but is always a light vehicle and to be honest it can be worth against enemies vehicle and then?..
Really I can't find a very worth about ravager or i cannot understand why the people use it...

Of course I wait your opinions about this topic.
Many thanks
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:17 am

You can move up to 12" and still shoot all 3 weapons thanks to the Aerial Assault rule. Flickerfields are optional now as you get a 5+ cover save if you move. Night Shields I think are also situational. They're much more effective at close range.

As for cost, 105 points for 3 mobile heavy weapons on an AV11 platform sounds pretty good to me.

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Hess
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:31 am

Not to mention the Ravager is our only choice of mobile heavy weaponry with the exception of flyers, and truth to be told the Razorwing Jetfighter isn't very reliable as it is a flyer and comes on a reserve roll.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:40 am

Cost per Dark Lance Ravager is the cheapest. Trueborn w/ Blasters in Raider is about the same cost, but you loose 24" range

Ravager move 12" plus 36" = 48" range
Trueborn Raider move 6" plus 18" = 24" range

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:10 am

105 points for 3 Dark Lances is a great value that can hardly be matched anywhere else in the codex.
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Lay_Ayanesha
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:27 am

A ravager is a fast moving weapon plattform. It can move up to 12" and still fire all weapons. A ravager is cheap and you can use it on from turn 1 (the flyers have to arrive first).
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:48 am

Roy89 wrote:
Point 105
With NS and TG 125
I'm guessing TG is an acronym for Flickerfields off a different translation of them - I first thought you meant Torment Grenade Launcher, but that wouldn't make the cost 125.

I don't use FFs anymore really because the 5+ Jink save for moving a skimmer is good enough, in my opinion.
I really don't use Torment Grenades on Ravagers either.

So, the cost is 115 - or maybe 125 if you want Flicker Fields too. It's still a very cheap unit.

Roy89 wrote:
Now for 3 DL,don't give me wrong, but I think is too expensive. It can move up 6'' and shoot, this is good but is always a light vehicle
For 3 DLs it's the cheapest way to get mobile lances in our army.
I actually can't figure out how to get 3 Lances cheaper, even at 125 - I don't think it's possible.

It can move up to 12" and shoot all of its lances.


Roy89 wrote:
and to be honest it can be worth against enemies vehicle and then?..
Then you can shoot at any 2+ armor save infantry units with it.
Or Monstrous Creatures that have an armor save.
After that, it's still good versus anything with multiple wounds, because at Str 8 it can cause instant death to most units.
After that it isn't great, but can still kill Space marines pretty well.
At that point it becomes not so great - but if I can kill all of the above stuff then I am perfectly happy with having the Ravager be not so great at shooting because I've probably already won the game.

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Roy89
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:02 pm

TG means Torment Granade and How you tell, is useless but I'm still unsure...
Thor your explanation is enough but I'm tried to use it and most the time it becomes destroyed on the first/second turn because is just a skimmer with AV11.
I know, AV11 is not bad but unfortunately I play always against SM CSM or a kind of and they play with lascannon,plasmacannon and other stuff.
The think is: I don't understand why someone try to comparate this unit with the trueborn but for now I can tell you that my razorwing/voidraven is the best choice I've done until now about heavy weapon in movement.
Is not cheaper but is a big source that we can use for shooting the foes behind thier lines and for destroy them heavy unit/vehicle.
I remember to you that with unfortune we can miss with all of three lances and then we can lost 100p for one turn. For someone is nothing, but the DE needs to exploit every single place with every single possibility for avoid to die.
It is just my point of view.
Thank you
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:15 pm

If they don't work for you then they don't work for you.
If they're destroyed too early then my only question is 'are you fielding many other vehicles, and do they survive?"

Because if the only vehicle you're fielding is a Ravager or two then it's going to get a lot of attention and will die quickly. But, if you field 9+ skimmers then it will tend to survive more simply because the enemy will have so many to destroy.

I don't think Torment Grenades are a good upgrade on Ravagers. Wink

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Roy89
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:23 pm

9+ skimmers mean 1k point and I play 15hundrends point usually.
I know it doesn't work for me and for this reason i have written is just my point of view.
Anyway I have opened this topic for talking about a ravager not a lot of.
I have asked you if the ravager is really useful or not.of course if I field a lot of them the result will be a whole battlefield with deep holes and explosion everywhere.
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Aschen
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:26 pm

I find that they mostly die when I am stupid with them and put them too close to enemy AT (or I get unlucky and dont blow up the enemy AT when I need to). The thing about Ravagers is that they are usually in danger the first two turns, in general. After that..either their AT is gone, or their focus is more on whats in their face, doing more damage. So I suggest hanging your ravagers near a flank, and picking off enemy vehicles at max range. And if you are worried about your crap getting blown up...well perhaps switch sides and buy a land raider?
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Orthien
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:43 pm

Simply put yes the Ravager is very useful and well worth the points for the power it brings.
If you are taking them then you do need to make sure you are abusing the Jink cover saves and their range to keep them alive.
As Thor said you should have plenty of Skimmers to help with target saturation. If your running a Footdar list then maybe Ravagers are a bad idea but even then they would help direct fire from your WWP Raiders/Venoms. If you are running Footdar and no WWP then fielding Ravagers is the least of your issues.

What kind of lists are you running and what are you doing that has your Ravagers destroyed first turn every game?
Obviously you can't help if your opponents just like to target them first but even then you can use that to your advantage to work with cover etc to help them and it keeps fire from the rest of the list.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:13 pm

I wouldnt go a day without my Ravagers, as I find it the best heavy choice by a mile.
But I have had alot of fun playing with Talos latly, but I have to admit that they arnt all that tho. But I find it fun Smile

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:07 am

Its fast, fires 3 lances (reducing armor to 12), a 36 inch range, and a cheap date.

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Tony Spectacular
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:53 am

I took a Dissie Ravager against a new codex DA list last night, and it was instrumental in the tabling I gave him.

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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:18 am

2 ravagers are a staple in my 1250 pt lists and above, with nightshileds and a little forethought to terrain placement I find them very surviveable.

I played vs CSM this afternoon @ 2000 pts, vanguard deployment, and my opponents blastmasters, havoks and predator never got a shot on my two ravagers, or my three raiders. He did manage 2 of 3 venoms ( 1 with a lucky scatter Sad ) His Icarus laser rolled as it usually does for him....i.e miss,miss,miss, Very Happy

Dont be discouraged by an opponents tendency to prioritise your ravagers; when testing new units and army lists you need to consider who you are playing as well as what army you are facing. Some opponents may be more threatened by venom born, or they played 5th edition and still hate your wyches with a passion.....

In my experience ravagers need to pounce to kill a tough target; and at least 2 need to do so (preferably with some true born/blaster back up!) What I mean by this is stay out of reach or give up a juicier target as bait if needed until you can overwhelm a single target, like a monolith/landraider/predator etc and then blow the whatsits out of it. With two ravagers staying at 43 inches out of range of most portable heavy weapons and then jumping up to 35-31 inches and firing 6 Dark lances at one hard target, you should have more success.

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:15 am

At first glance i just wrote it off.
But a second look, and some maths, says a better than evens chance of raider popping.

Wow, deldar are awesome!

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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:26 am

I never make a list without at least one ravager. Having dark lances on the board on turn one is always good. Reavers, haywire wyches and blasterborn can't hurt anything without at least one turn of movement.

NS and 12" of movement lets you limit what comes back at them. AV 11 and jink isn't going to make them massively survivable but I find nothing more funny than passing a load of jink saves when your luck is up Laughing

+1 to Darkgreen Pirate, ravagers might be prioritised in some games and they might explode very early on. They work best by completely decimating targets, it sounds obvious but ganging up on a tough target also helps limit what shoots back at them. Sending one ravager on its lonesome against something like a predator is pretty much asking for a crippling return volley if you're not super lucky to destroy it first.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:50 am

My other thought was that I could easily have 6 Lances on the board on Raiders, with 6 transported blasters.

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DominicJ
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:27 am

Its situational I think.
The Ravager is VERY good, on its own merits, but.
If its the only vehicle you have, its not going to survive the other guys Anti Tank, and fliers will be a better option
If you have three Ravagers and six plus Venoms and raiders, you are going to be target saturating him.

If he blows a 105 Ravager, he hasnt blown your 200+ pt raider, which is a good thing.

DLs are also good Char snipers.
S8 will instant death *most* HQs
a 2+ look out sir is good, but I've seen them fail, and you can put 9 such shots out. HQs leading from the front is suddenly a bad idea.

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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:42 am

I have 3 in almost every list i play, even at 750 pts. Two with lances and one with dissies at lower points then when I have more AI on the table I take all three with lances.

Redundancy is what I focus on then you don't end up with prime targets that draw all the fire.
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PostSubject: Re: Ravager yes or not   Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:12 am

Why take the Ravager?
Even though it's positively lame compared to some other heavy support choices in other armies the Ravager is the one real choice we have for anti-tank fire on turn 1. Raiders... really don't count I'm afraid.

This means you can start shutting down stuff that'll shoot down your Raiders as soon as possible.

On a side note, it sounds like you might not be playing with enough line of sight obscuring terrain. Or, if you have enough of it you might not be being sneaky enough with your Ravagers. Line things up so only 1 or 2 enemy units can see ya, then focus fire on those until they're deader than dead.

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