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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Tue Jan 22 2013, 04:40

Sorry but im bad at math, can someone point out where im wrong.

lets say im fighting 10 space marines in melee. Each one has a krak grenade and hits the talos with it. So that would be 10 attacks with a strength 6 weapon is that right? The odds seem to be in their favor if so.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Tue Jan 22 2013, 07:05

shadowseercB wrote:
Sorry but im bad at math, can someone point out where im wrong.

lets say im fighting 10 space marines in melee. Each one has a krak grenade and hits the talos with it. So that would be 10 attacks with a strength 6 weapon is that right? The odds seem to be in their favor if so.

Space marines hit the talos on a 4+: 1/2
Space marines wound the talos on a 5+: 1/3
The talos has a 3+ save: 1/3
There are 10 space marines attacking the talos: 10

10*1/2 = 5 hits
5*1/3 = 1.66 wounds
1.66*1/3 = 0.56 wounds after saves

It would take 54 space marines with krak grenades on average to kill a talos with three wounds in one round of combat. Even more if it had Feel no pain.

Hope that clears it up for you. Smile

Dogmar wrote:
True Mush, I recently tried proxying 2 units of 9 in a friendly game and they were absolutely fantastic. The Heat Lance setup you used in your first batreps is actually very good although I understand that you like the reliability of blasters. Still they popped 2 Tanks, a full marine squad and did awesome amounts of damage and softening up.

They are a load of fun! To be honest I still think the heatlance set up is perfectly viable. It really comes down to personal preference. Smile

Dogmar wrote:
The thing is just: How on earth do I get affordable reavers in western europe?! sorry for hijacking that thread by the way, but I think we have the Talos vulnerabilities covered.

I bought them from here originally, so saved £6 per box. I can imagine the killer is the postage cost for you (Germany).

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Tue Jan 22 2013, 08:02

Sorry, I'm on the fly and can't quote quickly on my phone, but two things some of you said are really confusing me:

- "a unit full with Meltabombs is the death of a Talos". But isn't it specifically said that a Meltabomb can't be thrown nor used in melee against MC? Thinking about it, the restriction could have been for throwing only, though. Razz

- "a Talos survives a lot, even more when it has FnP". Why shouldn't it? It starts with a Pain Token and notging will ever have the strength double the Talos' toughness. There aren't any Instant Death grenades (yet!), either. Would you care to elaborate? Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Tue Jan 22 2013, 08:16

Kinnay wrote:
- "a unit full with Meltabombs is the death of a Talos". But isn't it specifically said that a Meltabomb can't be thrown nor used in melee against MC? Thinking about it, the restriction could have been for throwing only, though. Razz

You can't throw them but you can use them in assault against MCs (page 62).

Kinnay wrote:
- "a Talos survives a lot, even more when it has FnP". Why shouldn't it? It starts with a Pain Token and notging will ever have the strength double the Talos' toughness. There aren't any Instant Death grenades (yet!), either. Would you care to elaborate? Smile

They don't start with a pain token.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Tue Jan 22 2013, 08:56

Yeah, I remembered the thing with the Meltabombs. I don't have the rulebook with me right now, but I think there even was a part, where the author said something about cinematicity and Meltabombs and Carnifices. Oh well.

But the Pain Token? Wow, that is unexpected. I've been playing it wrong since the codex came out then, how embarassing! Damn, I just thought Coven units generally start with a Pain Token. :S

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Dogmar
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Tue Jan 22 2013, 18:51

Thanks for the link Mush, I know the guys from Total Wargamer. Buying from them actually still comes out cheaper than going into an official GW here in Germany. However, the reavers still cost a good fortune and unless I'm buying say 5 boxes at once the postage eats up almost all of the money previously saved on the boxes.

And yep Kinnay, no Altered Physique for our Talos. He either needs to kill something fast, have Urien distribute him one or a Chronos to give him one.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Tue Jan 22 2013, 22:18

Urien only gives tokens to Wracks or Grotesques, sadly. How I wish he gave them to Taloi!

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 23 2013, 08:27

yes, very helpful thank you. I was just learning math hammer tonight and this helps quite a bit.
I was told that it isnt good against terminators and force weapons though, including the dreadknight. Any thoughts on that? Talos is so much fun though.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 23 2013, 09:07

Well, Talos is good at killing termies as long as it is not the Storm Shield variant, since MCs are AP2 in Melee. However Tarmies are also good at killing your talos since most termies have weapons that doubles their strength to 8, so they wound on 3+ and ignore the talos' armor save.

My advice is to shoot termies whenever possible or if need be assault shooty terminators without storm shields with incubi. Your Talos works better on other targets. Same goes for force weapons obviously because they can ID them. In GK lists you simply can't avoid them, but normally try to stay away from that librarian

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 23 2013, 09:08

shadowseercB wrote:
yes, very helpful thank you. I was just learning math hammer tonight and this helps quite a bit.
I was told that it isnt good against terminators and force weapons though, including the dreadknight. Any thoughts on that? Talos is so much fun though.

Force weapons I'd agree with as Taloi have no protection against ID from those weapons. Not so sure about terminators though. Taloi have S7, AP2 and enough attacks to worry most Terminators but will usually suffer in return as most Terminator melee weapons will ignore the Talos' 3+ save. Dreads are less clear cut as you would really need to be using Smash attacks to worry them which limits the number of attacks you will have.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 23 2013, 09:30

Count Adhemar wrote:
Force weapons I'd agree with as Taloi have no protection against ID from those weapons.

That being said they tend to only be hitting the talos on 4s (go WS5) and wounding on 6s, and strike at I4 or worse (grey knight halberds aside) not to mention force axes tend to be popular on most sorcerers/librarians nowadays so the talos will often be striking first.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 23 2013, 09:43

Mushkilla wrote:
Count Adhemar wrote:
Force weapons I'd agree with as Taloi have no protection against ID from those weapons.

That being said they tend to only be hitting the talos on 4s (go WS5) and wounding on 6s, and strike at I4 or worse (grey knight halberds aside) not to mention force axes tend to be popular on most sorcerers/librarians nowadays so the talos will often be striking first.

I find most force weapons tend to be on Grey Knights, certainly in the games I play, and their accursed Brotherhood of Psykers rule means they only need 1 wound from the entire unit to ID you. The Halberds can usually manage that wound Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 23 2013, 09:49

Count Adhemar wrote:
I find most force weapons tend to be on Grey Knights, certainly in the games I play, and their accursed Brotherhood of Psykers rule means they only need 1 wound from the entire unit to ID you. The Halberds can usually manage that wound Sad

True not much you can do against knights. I guess that is where the twin-linked liquifiers and twin-linked splinter cannons come into play.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 23 2013, 21:00

Thats the thing, I love incubi, I field them most of the time. They attack first but almost guaranteed to die. I usually field 3-4 of them because of their cost and lack of survivability.

That being said. Think it would be a good idea to have the incubi back up the talos? Or just have the talos fall in trailing the incubi, where ever they may end up?

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 23 2013, 22:54

Incubi and Talos is definitely a strong tag-team in assault. I think you're slightly misjudging the incubis role on the battlefield. Because of being so horrendously expensive I wouldn't send them against anything assault specialized that I can't wipe out immediately. Incubi do way better mopping units up fast, preferably ones that can't or can barely hurt them in return. Ideally they want to charge and spend exactly 2 combat phases in assault so they don't get shot at - rinse and repeat.

Think of it this way: Terminators are tough, relatively shooty depending on unit composition and strong in assault - shoot the hell out of them and they'll eventually die due to statistics (i.e. rolling 1s), thats their greatest weakness.
Tactical marines (or anything without an Invul really) are good at shooting and poor at assault, soften these units up a bit with splinter fire and let the incubi do the rest. Wiping a unit out with shooting alone often takes a lot of firepower. Only having to soften units up and let the incubi go rampage afterwards is faster and your shooting units can take care of the assault specialists in the meantime.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Thu Jan 24 2013, 06:43

yeah, I wish we had a elite that could stand against terminators. Everything you have said is good, I have also come to that conclusion too. The way I have seen it at this point is that for melee assault my Elitests are made for killing troops for the most part.

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