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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 07:55

SM have krak grenades that are str 6 ap 4. Does every model have them? When I think about it, if the tactical marines are in combat with a talos 10 of them in his face should instantly krak him to death, like how 5 witches glance the hell out of vehicles.

So it looks like troops can take this beauty out easily since they are both at the same initiative.

Is this true? Or is there some flaw in my logic?

Thanks
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 08:09

Well, maybe there's some flaw in MY logic. Don't understand what you' re concerned about...

Against ap4 the Talos still get it's 3+ armour save. So, no loss there. And it's no insta kill with S6 since the Talos is T7.

So, what's the problem exactly?

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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 08:28

There is indeed a hole in your logic shadowseer, as can be seen by a quick run through the maths.

You only ever get one attack from a grenade, so those Marines will have 10 attacks. WS 4 vs 5, so 5 hit. S6 vs T7, 1.66 wounds - and you still get your armour save, so it's about a 50-50 chance of taking a wound.

To me, that's not a huge issue.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 08:50

On average it will take 18 krak grenade attacks to inflict a single wound on a talos, 27 krak grenade attacks to inflict a single wound if the talos has FNP.

Krak/plasma grenades are actually a good thing, they mean guardsmen and aspect warriors who are S3 can't run away from your Talos. Very Happy

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 16:47

@wanderingblade wrote:
WS 4 vs 5, so 5 hit.
This would still be a 4+ to hit, not 5+
The attacker's weapon skill has to be less than half the defender's weapon skill to require a 5+ to hit (WS2 vs. WS 5 for instance)
Your math was correct though, so I'm guessing this was just a typo.

Toss me in with the people noting this as not a big threat - Space Marines will need more than just some grenades to survive a Talos in hand to hand combat.

On Average 10 Marines with only grenades will inflict .5 wounds to the Talos.
An unupgraded Talos on the charge that only rolls a 3 for its attacks will kill 2.22 Marines.

So, an underperforming weak Talos vs. a large Marine force using krak grenades, will be cheaper than them, and will kill them over four times faster than they can hope to kill it.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 16:49

@Thor665 wrote:
@wanderingblade wrote:
WS 4 vs 5, so 5 hit.
This would still be a 4+ to hit, not 5+

He's saying 5 hits, not 5+ to hit.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 16:51

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Thor665 wrote:
@wanderingblade wrote:
WS 4 vs 5, so 5 hit.
This would still be a 4+ to hit, not 5+

He's saying 5 hits, not 5+ to hit.

Yup, apologies for the lack of clarity.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 17:46

That makes even more sense than my typo theory.

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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 18:07

My concern is that, from what im told and cannot find in the book, That witches can throw one grenade at a vehicle in the shooting phase and throw all of their haywire grenades in melee. In melee, can a SM squad of 10 throw 10 grenades on the talos at once?

EDIT: I think I see where the flaw is,
on page 63 under haywire for assault the type says, "Haywire". For krak and also plasma for the assualt the type says, "-" so im guessing it cannot be used in melee against monstrous creatures and vehicles.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 18:18

@shadowseercB wrote:
My concern is that, from what im told and cannot find in the book, That witches can throw one grenade at a vehicle in the shooting phase and throw all of their haywire grenades in melee. In melee, can a SM squad of 10 throw 10 grenades on the talos at once?

EDIT: I think I see where the flaw is,
on page 63 under haywire for assault the type says, "Haywire". For krak for the assualt the type says, "-" so im guessing it cannot be used in melee against monstrous creatures and vehicles.

Yes they can throw 10 grenades at it in melee, the type of grenade does not make an issue, but look at the stats and realise it is completely not an issue at all. They wound 1 in 3 times, instead of 1 in 6. With only one attack each, that's really not a big deal for a 3+ armour save toting thing with 3 wounds and a propensity to cut through MEQ like a chainsaw through hot butter.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 18:34

ive played 4 games so far with these beasts, finally got 2 of them in combat. It was righteous. One got down to 1 wound and was charged by 2 dreadnaughts at the same time. He killed one (the melee) and wounded the other to 1 hull point (blood angels dreads, one melee the other one ranged). It was so amazing and felt even better to show others how awesome they are in combat. The other one ripped apart jump pack sm like butter while my archon laughed as they couldnt hit him.

I was just trying to figure out every weakness in this unit because I myself using it in the future, without that haemonculi setup everyone says I need to use in order to use them effectively.

Its tricky to get them into combat but now that I used the webway must more effective.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 18:57

There's a Haem/Talos setup?

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 19:09

im told of a haem, wrack, grotesque, chronos/talos setup. I also have a chronos but he doesnt seem as much of a bad ass as my talos's

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 19:24

I think the Chronos is a chump, personally - they have some slight viability when paired with a Talos, but to my mind you'd need the Talos first.

You're otherwise talking a Coven setup - you don't need to do a Coven to run a Talos and a COven doesn't make a Talos better. I'd suggest you're doing the right thing by ignoring the people suggesting that Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 19:34

@shadowseercB wrote:


I was just trying to figure out every weakness in this unit because I myself using it in the future, without that haemonculi setup everyone says I need to use in order to use them effectively.

Its tricky to get them into combat but now that I used the webway must more effective.

Wellp, Krak grenades ain't one of them, unless you're rather unlucky.

A squad with Meltabombs though, that would be different and utterly ruinous, but fortunately very rare due to extortionate cost.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 19:50

Fire Dragons do that.

I can't think of any other unit that can really get more than a single melta bomb equipped without an attached IC though. I'm probably forgetting something, i suppose.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 20:05

@Thor665 wrote:
Fire Dragons do that.

I can't think of any other unit that can really get more than a single melta bomb equipped without an attached IC though. I'm probably forgetting something, i suppose.

Vanguard Veterans from codex BA (and presumably the others) and Demolitions doctrine IG Veterans for two, daresay there's others. Not as many as there were once upon a time though.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 20:22

@Thor665 wrote:
I'd suggest you're doing the right thing by ignoring the people suggesting that Wink

Yeah I spent too much money and time (but especially the money) on suggestions of people at the shops and on the net to the point that I figured out how to weed through whats vital and not. So now I only listen to two websites, one for the army and one for the general game rules.

Im gonna try the chronos for a few more weeks and if it doesnt work out im gonna convert him to the talos. Too bad I already glued it...

EDIT: chronos does have nice templete/blast attacks though.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 20:39

IG Demo squads were what I was forgetting.

Also, Tankbustas and their tankbusta bombs depending however it is they're being ruled now.

Wasn't aware of Vanguard Vets in BA being able to do that - don't think I've ever seen it (regular SM Van vets can't though)

The only win with the Chronos is keeping him near a Talos and using him to toss pain tokens onto them so they get FNP quicker. That's literally it - other than that he is of no help to a Talos. He has potential use to other units in your army...maybe.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 20:46

well everyone I know tell me how bad jetbikes are and blah blah blah, and its been working out very very well. Im hoping the chronos will work well with the reavers so that I can get some melee in if I happen to get +1 to str or fighting tau and ig in close combat. Basically im hoping to build a army that is well balanced and not spam. So I can meet any challenge.
On that note, gawd I hate human races so much.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Wed Jan 16 2013, 22:56

For your Talos you need a plan of getting him where you want him - in CC. He does work as an eccellent fire magnet though so don't feel bad if your talos dies before doing anything, that's not optimal but he at least made sure the rest of your army gets to work mostly unharmed.

Also, don't ever let people tell you jetbikes are bad. They're horrendously espensive (money-wise) but one of the best units in our list. Very flexible supporters.
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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Sun Jan 20 2013, 21:29

I wholeheartedly recommend www.discountgamesstore.com for all plastic models. Reavers are $25 and change for a 'box' (they ship without the box, but all sprue is pristine and instructions are included), plus free shipping! I just wish they carried resin.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Mon Jan 21 2013, 15:53

I have 24 so I'm good.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Mon Jan 21 2013, 17:26

@shadowseercB wrote:
I have 24 so I'm good.

An Archon can never have too many reavers.

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PostSubject: Re: Talos vs krak   Mon Jan 21 2013, 21:43

True Mush, I recently tried proxying 2 units of 9 in a friendly game and they were absolutely fantastic. The Heat Lance setup you used in your first batreps is actually very good although I understand that you like the reliability of blasters. Still they popped 2 Tanks, a full marine squad and did awesome amounts of damage and softening up.

The thing is just: How on earth do I get affordable reavers in western europe?! sorry for hijacking that thread by the way, but I think we have the Talos vulnerabilities covered.
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