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 Thinking of starting DE

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Moookie
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PostSubject: Thinking of starting DE   Wed Jan 09 2013, 22:40

First off, hello I am a first time poster on this forum. I currently play IG and I have recently taken a liking to the DE models and unique play style. I am not really hell bent on making a super competitive army for DE but rather one that is fun and I can use some of the models I really like. I was just wondering if a list with an Archon in a full court, hellions ,scourges and reaver jetbikes could possibly work. I would use warriors and wychs in venom's to fill the rest of the core.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of starting DE   Wed Jan 09 2013, 23:03

A broad stroke question, and a broad stroke reply Wink

Basically, if I had to list the things in our codex that, if placed on the table, would make me squirm, almost nothing in your list is on that list.

Except the Court.

The Court is...awkward, and not that good. Though I will admit it looks awesome and is probably a blast to paint.

RJBs are amongst our best units right now.
Hellions...can be good if played right. Generally this requires extra pain tokens and Baron Sathypants, but they're not inherently bad per se'
Scourges are...meh. Again, not inherently bad, just on the weak side.

For a fun list I see no issue with anything.
For a list to win matches occasionally I would probably drop the lead weight that is the Court. I think you'll have enough of a handicap with Scourges and Hellions run without Sathy.

Hope that helps.

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Dogmar
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of starting DE   Wed Jan 09 2013, 23:10

Hello Moookie, first off: Welcome to the Dark City!

I hope you will enjoy this place as much as I do. It's certainly one of the best sources for DE related info on the web - and a friendly one at that, yes I'm looking at you haters on warseer Very Happy but I digress.

Before offering you some of my thoughts on your army idea I think it would be important to know how many other armies you are experienced with and how long you've been into the hobby. This is because DE are considered one of the most difficult but also most rewarding armies to play. Especially if you come from IG where you basically castle up and drop templates all over the place until everything is dead - no offense if I simplified too much - you'll have to think way outside the box to make DE work. But it's a challenge and with the DE dex you get one with great internal balance (with few exceptions - I will get back to that later) that gives you lots of options that are all viable and fun. Because of our extreme maneuverability you have a lot of tactical options at hand and thus you'll rarely find yourself in a situation where you can't do anything.


Ok, now that I've rambled a bit about what DE are like lets get down to your unit preferences:

First off you should get yourself a codex if you haven't already, that will make it easier to build a list and get used to the rules and special weapons (there's no standard autocannon here that appears in every imperial dex). But before I start rambling again let's get to business:

The Archon: Great HQ choice and a deadly combat character. Has extremely high initiative and WS and a quite high volume of attacks. Can carry various CC weapons (one of them is AP 2) and gimmicks to make him a real monster. The popular Soul Trap and Shadow Field (pretty much mandatory) come to mind here. Solid choice in every list with enough points to spare and a CC unit he can accompany.

The Court: One of the choices that is generally considered fluffy but "meh" at best game-wise. The problem with this unit is that you have to take at least one of each which hampers your options and capabilities as to how you want to use the unit. Example: You can't have enough Sslyth (combatty, tough guys) to make the unit T5 against shooting. If you really really want them go for it, but for remotely competetive play I'd leave them at home. Many people like to convert them because the models are also hideously expensive.

Hellions: Got a bit of the short end of 6th where you can't hide half the squad in a forest and claim a great cover save for the whole unit. If you want hellions, you need at the very least 10 to make them work and the Baron (Special Char) to accompany them because otherwise they'll get blasted away by shooting even more easily. Still good offensive capabilities, but fragile.

Scourges: beautiful models and one of the few sources for Haywire weapons in the army. They are quite flexible, have a relatively high armor for DE standards and can reliably damage even AV14 immune to lance Tanks. Still they're quite costly and fragile and most importantly compete with another unit in the FA slot: the Reavers! (I still field my scourges for the looks though, I like them)

Reavers: one of my favourite units in the dex since 6th edition. They now get a 4+ coversave while moving 3+ while boosting, they are extremely fast, can hurt things they move over and carry the absolutely deadly heat lance. They are a great support unit. Don't mix up their equipment though, make them either better against infantry or against tanks, both will see half the points wasted.

Wyches and Kabalites in Venoms are good for core. Some people like gunboats (Kabalite Warriors in Raider with Splinter Racks and Night Shield), but that's personal preference really. If you want the wyches to fight something they need to be bigger and have a hekatrix to support them. If you're just taking 5 in the venom I wouldn't bother with champion upgrades, they're pretty much one hit wonders and not survivable enough for the investment. Always - i can't stress this enough - ALWAYS take Haywire Grenades on them. The upgrade is wonderful. It gives the unit more potential targets and man do HWGs wreck any tanks day - literally. Again, if you have just 5 in a venom give them HWG and thats it.

Wow, pretty long post, I hope you liked the unit breakdown. Mushkilla might want to give you more advice on the reavers as he as a special place for them in his heart Wink Read his battle reports, you'll see why.

Cheers and enjoy your time here.


Dogmar

Edit: got partly ninja'd by Thor Smile
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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of starting DE   Thu Jan 10 2013, 08:17

Dogmar wrote:

Before offering you some of my thoughts on your army idea I think it would be important to know how many other armies you are experienced with and how long you've been into the hobby. This is because DE are considered one of the most difficult but also most rewarding armies to play. Especially if you come from IG where you basically castle up and drop templates all over the place until everything is dead - no offense if I simplified too much - you'll have to think way outside the box to make DE work. But it's a challenge and with the DE dex you get one with great internal balance (with few exceptions - I will get back to that later) that gives you lots of options that are all viable and fun. Because of our extreme maneuverability you have a lot of tactical options at hand and thus you'll rarely find yourself in a situation where you can't do anything.

Thor and Dogmar is spot on really, only thing I disagree with is this statement ;p

IMO DE isnt as hard as many makes it out to be. Maby before we got the new codex they where harder to play than the others, but I do not think their much harder than others. Yes you are more fragile than alot others, but you also outshoot most of the other armys.

I think the reason many makes them sound hard is to excuse looses and poor army lists. There are just to many traps to go in when making the army lists, and that is imo the only hard part about DE.

(I know many if not most will disagree wtih me but this is atleast what I feel.)

But I think you will enjoy the army Smile

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of starting DE   Thu Jan 10 2013, 10:09

I think it's a hard army to master when you don't run venomspam. Wink

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of starting DE   Thu Jan 10 2013, 10:17

Mushkilla wrote:
I think it's a hard army to master when you don't run venomspam. Wink

Maby, but I wouldnt say there is a huge differant in Venomspam and Raiderspam. Tbh I have found that a mix of both is the best now these days.

But I have been playing with units such as Wracks,Talos,Incubis in my last few matches, just to start playing more wide specter of the army. I still dont find it "hard". I have also done well when running wyches cult. (not played it in 6th yet). But I have played most kind of lists the last 2 years, and what I have found the most challangeing with the army is list building.

Tbh, every army in the game is challanging when running lesser lists than the top lists of the army. Sure you might have more survivability that will save you abit with some of the other armys, but still you are going to struggle. But then again that comes down to who you play, and the meta in your area. But to sum it all up, I dont find it more challanging than other armys.

DE is just a differant army to play, and to many people have played other armys and come to DE expecting to play them as all the rest. Ofc you are going to get stomped then. You have to play it differant, but that doesnt make it more challanging army to play.

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Hess
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of starting DE   Thu Jan 10 2013, 10:22

Welcome to the forums.

I personally consider no choice in the codex a bad choice with the exception of Mandrakes. Only model I woulnd't want to own are the Beastmaster and his various choices. It's very expensive cash wise for very little points, and the models are just not that great looking. If I were to field them, I'd probably go for a mix of alternative models that are converted.

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of starting DE   Thu Jan 10 2013, 11:42

Darklight wrote:
DE is just a differant army to play, and to many people have played other armys and come to DE expecting to play them as all the rest. Ofc you are going to get stomped then. You have to play it differant, but that doesnt make it more challanging army to play.

Spot on. This is why DE are considered "hard", because you can't play them, like marines. I also find DE benefit more than marine armies from a thorough understanding of the rules, and list building can be a challenge at times. At least in my experience. Are they the be all end all of generalship? No. Do they punish mistakes? Yes.

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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of starting DE   Thu Jan 10 2013, 12:43

Mushkilla wrote:
Darklight wrote:
DE is just a differant army to play, and to many people have played other armys and come to DE expecting to play them as all the rest. Ofc you are going to get stomped then. You have to play it differant, but that doesnt make it more challanging army to play.

Spot on. This is why DE are considered "hard", because you can't play them, like marines. I also find DE benefit more than marine armies from a thorough understanding of the rules, and list building can be a challenge at times. At least in my experience. Are they the be all end all of generalship? No. Do they punish mistakes? Yes.

Yup, I agree, understanding teh rules do benefit us more.

And I have to admit, the DE way of playing suits me so well. I struggle more with others as it dont suit me at all...
But we do get punished with misstakes. but again its what we learn from, and what makes us better players Smile

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of starting DE   Thu Jan 10 2013, 14:07

In some way DE are a good beginner army cause you don't pick up all the bad habbits that come with power armour. And like Darklight said you learn fast or die trying. Smile

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Dogmar
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of starting DE   Thu Jan 10 2013, 15:19

@ Darklight: When I was saying it's hard I meant extactly what Mush and you just discussed. I'm not trying to excuse anybody's inability to play and in fact I've had great results with my DE coming from Wood Elves in fantasy. It's just that there's a very substantial difference in the playstyle of DE and IG or Marines and for someone who might have played these armies for years the adaption to new gaming principles might be hard - or is generally considered hard. Also all your mistakes get punished badly. Some do it better and faster than others. That's basically what I was getting at.

I'll also have to agree that it's actually a good beginner army because you learn all important strategies, tactics and game mechanics right from the start. You might struggle doing this first, but it will pay off very fast.

Edit: also people seem to agree to my unit breakdown or it would probably have been torn to shreds by now Very Happy
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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking of starting DE   Fri Jan 11 2013, 06:03

The unit breakdown was good Smile

Yess I do agree that Dark Eldar is a good beginners army, but some people have no patience tho and thats the problem. You are proberly going to loose spectacularly in your first battle, and if you dont want to learn, well then you are in the crap

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