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shadowseercB
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PostSubject: Kill gun emplacement   Mon Dec 31 2012, 07:45

Someone told me that they read in the rule book that... If no one is manning the gun emplacement for a aegis defense line then no one can target and kill it. I have read all over the place and nothing suggests that. Has anyone seen that?

EDIT: and if someone is manning it I have to kill the whole squad manning it before I can target it and kill it.
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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Mon Dec 31 2012, 08:33

BRB, PG 105: "The gun emplacement can be shot at and attacked in close combat." I can't see any restrictions anywhere.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Mon Dec 31 2012, 10:17

You can also target just the gun by my understanding

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Mon Dec 31 2012, 10:23

@Massaen wrote:
You can also target just the gun by my understanding

Absolutely. It's an entirely separate model, not joined to another unit in any way. Indeed, if I am playing my dual Stormraven BA list my first target in any game is the Quadgun/Icarus (if there is one), as they are the biggest threat to my 'Ravens.

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Zaakath
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Mon Dec 31 2012, 13:37

And poisoned weapons make it rather easy to take down, even with a 3+ save you only need to cause two wounds...
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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Mon Dec 31 2012, 16:45

Moving this to Rules as it is a rule question...

Whilst I'm here I'll add two questions:

Does a quad gun count for first blood.
Can you shoot/assault your own quad gun?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Mon Dec 31 2012, 18:05

@Sky Serpent wrote:
Does a quad gun count for first blood.
Can you shoot/assault your own quad gun?

No and yes, in that order. It's battlefield debris, not a unit. So it doesn't count for first blood and is not classed as friendly (or enemy) for shooting/assault purposes.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Mon Dec 31 2012, 18:09

@Sky Serpent wrote:
Does a quad gun count for first blood.
Can you shoot/assault your own quad gun?

For first blood, the T.O.s here say yes, and they count it as a unit for purge the alien. Reason being is that is in your org chart and considered to be a unit on it's own.

Can you shoot / assualt your own? No, it's a friendly unit

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Mon Dec 31 2012, 21:18

@Seshiru wrote:
@Sky Serpent wrote:
Does a quad gun count for first blood.
Can you shoot/assault your own quad gun?

For first blood, the T.O.s here say yes, and they count it as a unit for purge the alien. Reason being is that is in your org chart and considered to be a unit on it's own.

Can you shoot / assualt your own? No, it's a friendly unit

TO's are free to rule as they choose of course but RAW they're wrong on both of these (see above).

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Tue Jan 01 2013, 00:52

But if the gun is not classed as enemy how are you shooting/charging it? That's the only time you have permission to attack something

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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Tue Jan 01 2013, 02:07

@Massaen wrote:
But if the gun is not classed as enemy how are you shooting/charging it? That's the only time you have permission to attack something
The entry for Gun Emplacements (BRB pg 105) specifically allows it.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Tue Jan 01 2013, 03:33

Units are defined as "Models" page 3, and models are defined as Citedal minature that have stats.
So unless there is something that actually says otherwise it meets the requirements. Its even in your force org the only line that I can find is "unlike units fortifications..." but even that doesn't really do it since the gun emplacements are optional purchases that are bought with the fortifications, they are not the fortifications themselves.

I do agree that they shouldn't be units because they are battlefield objects but i don't see anything that really says otherwise

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Tue Jan 01 2013, 09:17

But a Gun Emplacement is terrain. It falls under the Battlefield Terrain section of the rules and under the Battlefield Debris category. You can only attack it and shoot it because its rules specifically allow you to do so. If not you could no more attack it than you could attack a hill or a forest.

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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Tue Jan 01 2013, 10:29

I don’t believe that gun emplacements are units. I do think they should be counted for victory-point purposes for First Blood and Purge the Alien, however, with the key point being that they were purchased for a specific purpose within your army.

BRB p. 114 says that Aegis Defence Lines are Battlefield Debris, and nowhere under Battlefield Debris (pp. 104-105) does it indicate that defence lines or their attached gun emplacements can or cannot be considered as a unit under certain circumstances. Under "Choosing Your Army" on p. 109, though, it states that Fortifications such as the ADL "unlike units, .... are not found in codexes", which would seem to lean towards their not counting as a ‘unit’ for the purpose of scoring.

However, the section for Emplaced Weapons on p. 96 clearly differentiates between two different types of fortification, "neutral" versus "purchased". Purchased fortifications cost points from your army’s overall total and occupy a position in your FOC, so, clearly they are being utilised as part of your army to the disadvantage of your opponent, i.e., as a ‘unit’. The question then becomes what do you have to do in order to gain a victory point from them?

As Seshiru points out, the gun emplacement is an optional purchase for a fortification. It is not the actual fortification. You can individually target and destroy the gun emplacement, but you have not destroyed the fortification, which was the actual ‘unit’ purchased. The problem is that, unlike Building-type fortifications with armour values, battlefield debris (defence lines) cannot be further destroyed.

In every other instance, when you purchase something that occupies a FOC slot in your army and you lose it in the game, it can potentially count against you. First Blood requires the first unit “of any kind”, while Purge the Alien requires “each enemy unit that has been completely destroyed”.

When you destroy a building fortification (or portion of it, in the case of the Fortress of Redemption), you eliminate the fortification and the weapon system that was emplaced with it. The ‘unit’ you purchased is effectively destroyed and that should be worth a victory point. With an ADL, you can only target the gun emplacement, so if you destroy that you have destroyed the ‘unit’ as a whole as much as is possible to achieve.

Clearly, some sort of FAQ is needed to clarify the situation. But overall, I would say that if you are not prepared to potentially lose points from them, you should not take them in your army.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Tue Jan 01 2013, 17:26

I don't actually agree that p96 makes any differentiation between 'neutral' and 'purchased'. It is merely commenting on automated weaponry versus manned weaponry. It also begs the question of what happens if you destroy your own quadgun, bastion or other fortification purchase? Is that an automatic First Blood for whoever gets first turn by simply killing their own 'unit'?

I also think it's very hard to ignore page 109 which explicitly states that fortification are not units and I would say that it's hard to argue that upgrades purchased for these non-units are themselves units. It's also worth pointing out that what Seshiru said in his earlier post is not strictly accurate and is paraphrasing what is written on page 3 of the rules. Having a statline does not make something a unit. All units have statlines but not all statlines belong to units.

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baster
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Tue Jan 01 2013, 21:00

i think attacking your own quad gun just for first blood goes against games manship unless you are destroying it to keep it out of enemy hands, this falls into the catagory of when tau ele jump off buildings just so they can all get prefered enemy. think this is not in keeping with the game without an in game reason
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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Wed Jan 02 2013, 05:17

@Count Adhemar wrote:
But a Gun Emplacement is terrain. It falls under the Battlefield Terrain section of the rules and under the Battlefield Debris category.

Absolutely. Fortifications and Gun Emplacements are terrain, not units. Paying points for a Fortification merely allows you to set it up in your table half, where you want it. Nowhere in the rules does it state that they become "Units" in any way, let alone friendly/enemy/opposing etc.
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Veritas
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PostSubject: Re: Kill gun emplacement   Fri Jan 04 2013, 19:26

If a fortification was a unit, then it could: be shot, be assaulted, deny space for enemy infiltrators, cause Deep Strike mishaps, have psychic powers cast on it (and deny the witch), allow you to have an all-reserves army without auto-losing (say, all in pods and flyers or something), count as a kill for VP and first blood, not be used by enemies, etc.

It does none of those things. It is not classed as a "unit" for a lot of good reasons. Saying otherwise is just plain poor sports (and cheating! Very Happy).
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