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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Fri Jan 04 2013, 02:13

@Seshiru wrote:
No entry in the Dark Eldar codex has the combat drugs special rule
Nor is there an entry in the Dark Eldar Wargear section for Combat Drugs. The only place in the Codex you will find it is in the Special Rules section. Basically, the Wargear item 'Combat Drugs' in a unit's entry confers the (unfortunately identically named) 'Combat Drugs' Special Rule so I can see why this may be confusing.
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Fri Jan 04 2013, 05:56

I have two big, big problems with your interpretation.

1. Vect joins a unit before Deployment.
Where from do you get this notion?
The FAQ says he has to join a unit before the game starts. When do ICs normally join units? During Deployment. Is Deployment 'before the game starts'? Yes, the game starts after Deployment. There is no need to join him before Deployment, because the normal procedure works just fine.
The second sentence states, that they must be embarked on the Dias of Destruction, when they are deployed. When are they deployed? Well, obviously during deployment. No need to join them before Deployment too, the normal procedure works just fine.

2. Combat drugs are an ongoing effect and not a special rule.
This is a little bit more complicated, because there is no good definition of an ongoing effect, but it is pretty clear, that ongoing effects and special rules follow different rules, so a special rule can't be an ongoing effect or it would have to follow contradicting rules. Since the Combat Drugs special rule is obviously a special rule in the Dark Eldar special rules section of our codex it is very unlikely that it is an ongoing effect, because it would have to follow both, as said before, contradicting rules in the BRB.
Additionally our codex originates in 5th edition and in 5th edition there was no such thing as ongoing effects. To argue that a special rule that never says it's an ongoing effect is one, although it can't have been one when written, because no such thing existed at that time and it was never FAQed or changed since then is at least suspicious.

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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Fri Jan 04 2013, 08:24

@Seshiru wrote:

If I'm wrong that's fine, just point it out.
I believe we have pointed it out my friend. But as the old saying goes: "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink"

The crux of the entire matter comes down to: ". . ., the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit." (pg. 39 BRB)

The rule for Combat Drugs is in the Special Rules section of the Dark Eldar Codex.

If you insist that Combat Drugs are only Wargear and that they do not utilise the Combat Drugs Special Rule, then by all means, use the rules in the Wargear section of the Codex for Combat Drugs. (Still looking?)

You cannot quote a rule that is in a section clearly marked "Special Rules" and then go on to argue that it is not a Special Rule.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Fri Jan 04 2013, 17:48

The combat drugs special rule, is the rule that allows rolls a dice prior to deployment and grants bonuses to all units with the wargear. If you want to argue that your units are conferred this rule by having the wargear then go right ahead take 2 Succubi and Roll 2 dice and get 2 bonuses to each of them.

The bonuses granted by the Dark Eldar combat drugs special rule specifically say they go to all units that have the wargear, but since everyone is against this, I'll just chalk it up to a technicality that I must be reading to much into.

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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Sat Jan 05 2013, 16:53

What do you mean by taking two rolls for a Succubus? You make one roll for your army, and each unit with Combat Drugs gains the benefits of the Combat Drugs special rule.

It's not difficult.

You refer to the "Combat Drugs special rule", yet continue to deny that it is a special rule.

I don't understand your logic (or lack thereof)
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Sat Jan 05 2013, 23:55

Ok, one final explanation, only because you said you didn't follow what I was saying then I won't post anything else to this thread.

The blood brides do not have the combat drugs special rule, they have the combat drugs wargear.

The combat drugs special rule, is basically as you describe you roll once for the army and all Units (it specifically says units) with the wargear "benefit from the effect" for the rest of the game (this is the exact wording from the codex).

The rulebook has very specific rules on P.39 for how independent characters function when joined to a unit, for starters they are considered to be members of that unit for all rules purposes.

More importantly, it says that if a unit gets a "beneficial effect" while the independent character is joined then they get it to and keep it if they leave the unit.

What keeps getting mentioned is the statement that when an independent character joins the unit if they have special rules that he doesn't (at the time of joining) then he doesn't benefit from them, but the blood bride don't have the special rule they have the wargear.

On a side note if a unit gains a special rule while an independent character is attached then he gets it to (from say a blessing)

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Veritas
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Sun Jan 06 2013, 04:09

Hmm, lessee here...

"All units in your army that have combat drugs will benefit from the effect listed for the entire game." C:DE

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes..." BRB

"Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them." BRB


And that's all that need be said. The unit with the wargear gets the special rule. Characters gain the effects of the combat drugs while joined, simple and done. They pass the doobie around and everybody's'a'happy. Then he crashes when he leaves the party.


Last edited by Veritas on Sun Jan 06 2013, 04:17; edited 1 time in total
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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Sun Jan 06 2013, 04:15

But special rules are NOT conferred to an IC, as per BRB pg. 39, unless the special rule itself states otherwise.
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Veritas
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Sun Jan 06 2013, 04:17

D'oh! Forgot that part, so complete reverse my position, he doesn't get it no matter what.

Still, super simple. Dunno how it went for two pages. Neutral
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