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Raoiley
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PostSubject: Combat drugs   Sun Dec 30 2012, 03:38

If vect is in a dais with 9 wytches I understand that they will benefit from his
Preferred enemy status. Question is, will he get their combat drugs?
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BMD
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Sun Dec 30 2012, 04:31

No, Preferred Enemy states in it's BRB entry that if a unit contains at least one model in it with Preferred Enemy, they benefit from the rule. Combat Drugs don't work that way.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Mon Dec 31 2012, 17:01

you only get the benefit of combat drugs if the model has combat drugs in their wargear. The only reason Prefered Enemy passes is due to it being a USR and it says it confers to the unit. The same way his Fearless confers to them as well

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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Mon Dec 31 2012, 18:12

The only way Vect would benefit from the Combat Drugs is if you rolled a '6' for the result and gained the Pain Token.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Mon Dec 31 2012, 20:44

This is much greyer than you might think. It (combat drugs) does say "All affected units" not all affected models and is it has been pointed out before p.39 "when an independent charcter joins the unit he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" this is different than previous editions

The problem with combat drugs is it's prior to deployment, so their is the quest of when Vect joins the unit because if its after the roll then the section on P.39 independent characters and ongoing effects, makes it clear that he wouldn't benefit, as units are normally put together at deployment. Vect is special though since you must Begin the Game with the unit if you take the Dias (very similar to Space wolf, wolf guard where they are aloud to infiltrate since they join prior to deployment).

The FAQ:
Q: For Asdrubael Vect to take the Dias of Destruction the Dias must
begin the game with Asdrubael Vect and 9 other models on board. How
does this work? (p55)
A: Before the game starts, Asdrubael Vect will have to join a
squad that is 9 models strong, and they must be embarked upon
the Dias of Destruction when they are deployed.

Which also points that He Joins and then "When they are deployed", implying again that his joining must be prior to deployment.

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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 02:46

I personally believe it's pretty black and white. Vect doesn't have Combat Drugs so doesn't benefit from them. (Except of course the Splintermind result through Sharing the Pain). To interpret it otherwise is wishful thinking IMHO.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 03:37

Incubi don't have the phantasm grenade launcher, would you argue they therefore shouldn't benefit?

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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 03:50

The PGL specifically states: "A model with a phantasm grenade launcher counts as having both assault and defensive grenades, as does any squad he joins". Very different situation.
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 03:57

If the PGL didn't explicitly say that a squad joined by an IC with a PGL counts as being equipped with assault and defensive grenades too, they wouldn't benefit, but it does.

A better example is the Power from Pain special rule. This only mentions units, not models. Would you argue, that Harlequins, Court members, beasts or allies should benefit?

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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 05:03

After looking at Power from Pain in the Codex, there are certainly enough questions for a complete thread of its own. As for the Combat Drugs question, Vect wouldn't benefit from them as the IC rules ((BRB pg 39) states under "Special Rules": "Unless specified in the rule itself. . . , the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, . . ."
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 05:51

Combat drugs are not a special rule they are a piece wargear that generates an ongoing affect to affected units prior to deployment, and it only says "all affected units" gain the bonus it doesn't say anything about individual models at all. The section on P. 39 independent characters and ongoing affects states very clearly that if the IC is in the unit prior to the ongoing affect triggering the he gets the benefit, and if he isn't then he doesn't. Under normal circumstances it wouldn't be an issue, but Vect is a wierd area (only with the dais) as his FAQ implies that he joins prior to deployment if you purchase the Dias.

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 05:59

The combat drugs special rule is in fact exactly that, a special rule. All the wargear does is conferring that special rule to different models and units.

The important part is that all special rules that don't specify the opposite aren't conferred to ICs joining an affected unit or the other way round.

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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 06:12

As above, you'll find that the rules for Combat Drugs are in the Dark Eldar Special Rules section of the codex, not in the wargear section. Also, "Ongoing Effects" refers to particular Special Rules such as Blind and Soul Blaze so is not relevant to Combat Drugs.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 06:28

Poisoned shooting weapons are also listed there, but regardless it is a piece of wargear, and it doesn't say that having the wargear confers the combat drugs special rule, the army wide rule says that units with the wargear get a bonus for the rest of the game.

Also those 2 above mentioned were only examples the rule book used.

It should be noted at some point that this isn't a good idea to take this unit...

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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 06:47

The rules have to say you can do something, not say that you can't. That's the crux of all games basically. The drugs rules actually say...

All units in your army That have combat drugs will benefit from the effect listed for the entire game.

So the unit must have drugs. The IC does nit have them? They miss out. Otherwise, why have them as an option for some models?

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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 07:03

@Seshiru wrote:
Poisoned shooting weapons are also listed there, but regardless it is a piece of wargear, and it doesn't say that having the wargear confers the combat drugs special rule, the army wide rule says that units with the wargear get a bonus for the rest of the game. ...

I think there is a flaw in your argumentation. Poisoned shooting weapons aren't a piece of wargear. Splinter rifles or Shardcarbines, etc. are pieces of wargear, that use the poisoned special rule, as described by the poisoned shooting weapons special rule. The same is true for combat drugs. Units that have combat drugs use this special rule and benefit of it's effects and those who don't don't.

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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 07:35

@Seshiru wrote:

Also those 2 above mentioned were only examples the rule book used.

I.
If you're referring to the Ongoing Effects rule, I believe the 2 examples used are the only examples at present.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 20:36

@Massaen wrote:
The rules have to say you can do something, not say that you can't. That's the crux of all games basically. The drugs rules actually say...

All units in your army That have combat drugs will benefit from the effect listed for the entire game.

So the unit must have drugs. The IC does nit have them? They miss out. Otherwise, why have them as an option for some models?

But this is the problem, Vect is a member of the above mentioned unit at the time of the trigger and the unit does have combat drugs. Vect is the dais is the only way (that I'm aware of, for dark eldar) that can join prior to deployment which is when they go off. Keep in mind that independent characters are members of the unit for all rules purposes and it does say on P.39 that if the unit gains an ongoing effect (defined by "a beneficial or harmful effect" while the independent character is attached then he gets the affect as well.

Prior to deployment dark eldar special targets all units with combat drugs and gives a bonus effect to the unit.

The reference to special rules , states that if the independent character and the unit have different special rules, in this case neither have the combat drugs special rule so it doesn't apply.

As for the combat drugs not being wargear, for the unit in question it states combat drugs in their wargear.
For there there only being 2 beneficial or harmful effects in the entire game, I'm pretty sure that's not the case for starters it says such as a blessing....

until they FAQ it otherwise, he can do that if you really wanted to.

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baster
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 21:13

ok, lets look at this from a fluffy point of view,

combat drugs are either ingested, breathed in, injected or in some way administered to the body, which is where the cults that use them get their kicks this would mean that they carry a personal stash to get desired effects.... vect on the other hand would not want to cloud his mind by polluting his body in such a way and gets his kick in other more interllectual ways and using his mind in some cruel and/or malicious way. and therefore as far as im concerned does not bennefit other then seeing some gratifing effects on his troops and feeling pain from their accelarted exsuberance.
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 21:41

@Seshiru wrote:
But this is the problem, Vect is a member of the above mentioned unit at the time of the trigger and the unit does have combat drugs. Vect is the dais is the only way (that I'm aware of, for dark eldar) that can join prior to deployment which is when they go off.

Can you prove that he is a part of the unit when the drug roll is performed? And of course it's blindingly obvious this is blatant rules lawyering and not how it actually works so... Why would you even argue this?
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Tue Jan 01 2013, 22:22

Yes, the FAQ for vect makes it clear that he is part of the unit at that time.

I don't see this as rules lawyering, I see it as the fundamental why that rules dealing with independent characters has changed for 6th ed and its just one of the many consequences of not getting fully updated rules for each army when the edition changed. In my opinion it clearly works this way, arguing the opposite because fluff or other reasons like "they didn't mean that" seems like lawyering to me.

And to be clear I don't want to use this unit, if I were to take vect it would be with 3 haemies and 6 incubi with klaivex and blood stone upgrades to be a flying liquifier madness

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Dra'al Nacht
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Thu Jan 03 2013, 00:32

Regardless of the timing of joining and rolling for Combat Drugs, Vect still doesn't benefit as Special Rules are not conferred unless stated otherwise in the Special Rule itself.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Thu Jan 03 2013, 15:56

No entry in the Dark Eldar codex has the combat drugs special rule

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Thu Jan 03 2013, 19:23

@Seshiru wrote:
Vect is the dais is the only way (that I'm aware of, for dark eldar) that can join prior to deployment which is when they go off.

Any independent character can join to any squad prior to deployment. Take for the example the clarification to Shrike from the SM codex

"Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following:
“See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit
chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before
deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule)."- SM codex FAQ, page 3

All characters are deployed with their squad prior to deployment now, which they did to help clarify some rules.

As for the rules. It clearly states you must have combat drugs wargear to gain the benefit. Yes Vect can join a unit with combat drugs, but he does not gain the bonus because he doesnt have the wargear option. Its a very simple matter and you really gain nothing from trying to rules lawyer it.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Combat drugs   Thu Jan 03 2013, 21:24

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
As for the rules. It clearly states you must have combat drugs wargear to gain the benefit

I must have missed that page, where did you find it?

As for the space marine giving faq giving them an ability to join prior to deployment so they can use his infiltrate ability as intended that makes sense. As per the USR "Independant character with out the infilitrate special rule cannot join inflatrators during deployment" (paraphrasing as I don't have the book in front of me). If what you are saying is correct then they can just by-pass that by joining before deployment; but they can't, unless they specifically say they can.

I'm still surpised that this I'm being accused of rules lawyering on this, but whatever.

I'm pointing out that these are the rules with the exact referrences and quotes and no one is providing ANYTHING that actually says otherwise just arguing there point of view or refferencing thing like don't apply when i deal with lawyers that's what they do....

If I'm wrong that's fine, just point it out.

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