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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 01:45

While we're debating about the rules base I think the other major debate point is as follows.

What do you see as the fluff angle of this game?

The "original" concept from the other Dark Eldar website was small bands of 'Raiders' under the command of a Dracon. Basically these gangs being small parts of larger Cabals that are vying for territory and souls.

To my mind, when I first heard this idea, what I thought about was the idea as mentioned in the codex of warring street gangs that are fighting for survival as well as a chance to be noticed by the Kabals and 'promoted' into being full Kabalite warriors (specifically note the description of Sec Maegra (aka Null City) on Page 10 - to my mind that is the perfect sort of fluff base for this type of game as it will allow you to play up the street aspect and be more tied into the general feel of Necromunda while still having a strong DE flavor and also able to better justify roving bands of escaped slaves being part of the action.

There's also probably a 3rd potentiality we could go with. Perhaps something Gorkamorka-ish wherein we'd establish a locale and populate it ourselves with an appropriate cast of characters and back story to justify the gang warfare.

Anyone have any thoughts on this question?

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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 01:59

I think you're pretty bang on with that, Thor.

I envisage the action taking place in the sordid depths of Commorragh where every day is a struggle to survive, where small bands of warriors form up for protection and glory etc. It's up to the player to decide how and why their 'gang' is there and who their leader is.

I'd like to keep in the fame rating that most of the games use, once a certain limit is met then you can consider the gang climbing to become the start of a real Kabal and embarking on actual realspace raids.

I like the idea of individual warriors having fame too and being promoted, stops uber characters ruling campaigns.

Also nothing to stop us having a setting for our own campaign. Wink

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 04:03

Wow! I disappear for a long period of time and then return in time for this! As a major fan of skirmish/warband games I have to say this is a fantastic suggestion! I would love to help when and where I can - I own originals of Necromunda, Inquisitor, Gorkamorka and Mordheim (although sadly I'm currently working in Spain so won't have a chance to reference them for sometime.

I actually want to propose a more detailed idea for the game rather than making a 'Commorogh skin' (how haemonculic!) for Necromunda. Something which plays on the blood thirsty, back stabbing and unpredictable natures of the DE (for those who've played it - think the Game of Thrones 2nd Edition Board Game!) whilst integrating a 'tech tree' (linked to gang / warband ratings - opening access to new equipment but ramping up the cost of lower level goods and supplies) and a rich post/pre game sequence to build and strengthen both the tactical and narrative elements of the game.

Having recently begun replaying Age of Empires 2, I also wonder about whether it may help balance things by having one 'baseline' warband list that have tailored options depending which Aspect of DE society you associate yourselves with: The Haemonculi begin with more wracks and access to Groteques immediately or can 'hire out' their services to other sects (could be a better word instead of Warbands/Gangs) for a price, but could equally choose to mutilate / kill the 'opposing' sect member, which unto itself may have consequences (the 'opposing' sect leader gains re-rolls to hit vs The Haemonculi Warband in their next game...)

Anyway I have heaps of thoughts - Path of the Renegade could be an excellent source I think along with taking basic elements and ideas from other game systems (including computer games and board games amongst others) and see if they might translate into a system. I have an idea in my head but I think we need to throw out as many suggestions as possible and get everything onto a 'Design Ideas List' under different potential headings, eg Warbnd types, Basic Combat/Movement/Shooting ideas and mechanics, Resiurce gathering and Tech Trees etc...

Any of this make sense or do I sound as mad as a Hawmonculus?!

Edit: sorry for the typos, I had been writing this on my iPod...

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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 08:38

I would be cool with this as a Necromunda plug-in.

And I'd be cool with making this a 6th ed based game taking a lot of inspiration from Necromunda for skirmish mechanics.

I don't think wandering away from either of those choices is a good thing. Maybe we could make a better game by doing that, but as long as we can still make a good game with either of these options, I think we should, as something like this deserves to be played and you'll get more people interested if you keep it with what they know i.e. GW mechanics. It also saves us time and effort. I've been through a lot of game add-ons of this nature, mainly for Mordheim, and its easy for people to lose interest and impetus. I would not recommend unnecessary work.


As for the background - I agree with Thor's pitch that this should be about the little guys fighting to be noticed, with BAMFs being retired as they go join Realspace Raids and all that juicy stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 10:14

Spot on with the background Thor! Surviving merciless street life.

As for rules 6th edition modified to get the same feel that necromunda had would be great.

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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 15:30

I think maybe a mix of the last idea (Gorkamorka-ish) and the second long paragraph you wrote about the roving street gangs vying for territory and "materials" (whatever that may be) could work.

And by blending the two, I meant the idea of picking some locale and populating it.... Here is my idea

"A thought could be that the Over Tyrant found an age old deactivated webway gate to a long lost satellite realm within the Warp. The realm is part of the city that had once been a vibrant and brilliant city world of itself until its link to the rest of the Dark City was severed. Its population, as far as known, has died out in the millennium since its seclusion. The Over Tyrant has decided to open the gate to this new realm, allowing for those interested to try and vie their strength, of arms or treachery (or both), to try and claim this new realm as their own. Well established Kabals would either not have the need to expend resources on a silly 'land grab' or simply don't care. Some may care after all, but that is left unseen. Whereas young Dracons from around Commoragh see this as an excellent opportunity to upstart their careers. So they gather up their bands of raiding thieves and cheats, gangs of ruffians and murderers and bum rush the open gate into what they hope to be a world that is theirs for the taking. So as the different groups pour into the new realm, they are left to fight amongst themselves to gain control of these fresh pickings and cement their place of power in the Dark City"

What about that?

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Devilish
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 16:38

I like the suggestion of the theme. I'd see it as a fighting over the spoils of a fallen Kabal. The victorious Kabal might not have had enough resources to claim the whole territory taking only the most prized ones leaving the lesser ones for later pickings. Gangs, members from the fallen Kabal other Kabal's members fight over the spoils trying to get the most of void the old Kabal left. I'd see this a fairly common occurence at least with the smaller Kabals. That's my thoughts.
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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 16:52

Mordheim has Wyrdstone, Necromunda had I forget, Gorkamorka had scrap... its a classic mechanic for these skirmish games, and I'd recommend using it...

And I also think what exactly they're fighting over has to be vital to the setting, so I think we should be thinking about this now (if we're gonna use it) and building it in at the base level.
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Super Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 17:06

Well with a setting of that satellite realm, there could be a lot of inclusions....

1) The Dracon and their chosen gang of forces. (I.e. - wyches and their knives and the like, an entry level Haemonc and their few lolely wracks, the Dracon and some would-be warriors, escaping slaves who saw the portal thinking it could be an escape from Commoragh, the surviving remnants of the people who lived in that realm before the gate was closed- think zombies or mutants, or once there is a discovery of something valuable the bigger well equipped Kabals send in fully trained warriors, etc.)

2) The fact that there is both fluid inter-connectivity with the rest of Commoragh proper, as well as having some seclusion. This could make it more reasonable to say have ammo caps, or resource limitations. It would take time to send workers back through the gate to get supplies then come back in, yet still able (and most likely constantly happening) to happen.

3) The opening of new territory would also create a vacuum of just more places to live. With the hustling and bustling of the Dark City being pretty much spilling over, there could be a certain point where "civilians" (as much as Commorite populations not in Kabals can be called as such) could be going to this new realm to populate it.

4) The flow of information through a webway portal to a satellite realm would be impeded as well, although only slightly. Thereby givin greater chance to subterfuge and backstabbing. The sizeof someone's gang or their location would be known to those in that realm, but not back in the main part of the City so therefore reinforcements may be lacking or late or whatever. Plus deals made in the realm or vice versa may not translate across the portal.

There are a lot of things that can be utilized.


EDIT: Another idea came to me and I'll just add it here....

There was talk of how neat campaigns can be with this whether it be solo or with others (there would always be at least one other person though akin to a GM I'm guessing). So to go off the idea that Vect himself is the one that is "allowing" different groups to fight over the newly discovered realm, it could be a nice culmination of the campaign in that the final struggle for control is when Vect's own forces come streaming through the gate trying to seize the opportunity to take the realm from the one or two "victors" in the struggle for power of the new territory.

Better equipped and Vect supported troops would be a big challenge for the would be Dracon on the verge of making his/her own Kabal, but if they overcome Vect's attempt, it would definitively secure their place as an eventual Archon within the Dark City.

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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 17:39

In the case of something to collect, how about infamy? You gain it by performing merciless tasks, backstabbing, cheating and killing?

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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 18:15

@Grub wrote:
In the case of something to collect, how about infamy? You gain it by performing merciless tasks, backstabbing, cheating and killing?
Mainly just because I didn't choose the thug life, the thug life chose me.... I prefer the term "street cred" over infamy. Cool

All joking aside.... I think that mechanic might work. Maybe have it be some other upgrade table besides resources. I.e.

One table of upgrades for gangs or models/units is used to upgrade equipment. This done by collecting extra metal scrap, or finding some poisonous plant growing. Such items would then be able to go into this chart's upgrades such as make your CCW poisoned, or add a sight to your rifle for better aim, add more spikes to your already porcupine-esque armor, etc.)

The other chart is the "street cred" (infamy) chart, where through gainging more points in this, the unit can get upgrades more akin to personal prowess. I.e. Counter Charge, Scout, Power From Pain (i feel this should be an upgrade because a newbie Commorite needs to really start getting a taste for blood to be able to get stronger from pain wrought), and other things like that.

Just a thought.

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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 19:16

Super Dave, I really like your idea for the setting and theme idea as well as Grub's "Infamy" concept of power and reputation (can anyone think of a more conniving, dark and insidious word to mean the same thing though?). It makes sense and I even like the concept of a campaign 'pinnacle' / conclusion with the introduction of Vect or some other powerful warband commanded by a GM / automatic movement. Dave your idea kind've reminds me of the Path to Glory / Realm of Chaos system for Chaos warbands in Fantasy (link to online PDF here: http://www.angelfire.com/co4/thedarkgods/pathext.pdf ) which was a really great - if somewhat random, ruleset!

Wanderingblade: I think you made a lot of sense there dude, although perhaps one day we could add an 'expanded' ruleset to ramp up the RPG element to it. Point taken though, this would only really appeal to the hardcore skirmish gamers! Razz

Edit: This is a re-vamped version of Path to Glory and includes some scenarios and a more streamlined system:

http://www.minishoppa.com/snotling/PathToGlory.pdf

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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 19:18

Along with success, increased skills, powers, and street cred would come expansion, as other lowlifes decide that they want to throw their lot in with whoever is in the ascendant. Then there's also the simple wannabe's, hangers-on, etc., and the potential for spies to infiltrate amongst the growing horde, so that any expansion would always have a highly unstable, random, and potentially disastrous element to it.

Could this be incorporated somehow? (maybe it already is, I have never played the particular games being used as a basis here) I realise that there would be obvious space limitations, but it does seem like a good fit fluff-wise. And as Sky and Thor observed, many of these gangs are the beginnings of a new kabal that eventually grows large enough to conduct realspace raids, or are vying to enter an existing kabal. Bringing increased numbers to the interview would be a desirable bargaining chip.

I also like Devilish's fighting-over-the-kabal's-remnants theme. Perhaps alternate themes or scenarios?
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 19:29

I agree with you Gobsmacked - there should be some downside (preferably involving easier backstabbing / spying / assassination) to expanding and become the 'top dog', its one thing I found in skirmish games like Necromunda / Mordheim - when one person gets a lead on everyone else then often campaigns grind to a halt and aren't resolved properly because its clear to players about who will ultimately win it (sadly!). Having a mechanic(s) to even the scales and mean that to every upside there is also a downside could help this.

Effectively make it a gamble system where the gamble involves other players more easily taking advantage of a sect that is 'spread thinly' as it were...

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 19:39

@wanderingblade wrote:
Mordheim has Wyrdstone, Necromunda had I forget, Gorkamorka had scrap... its a classic mechanic for these skirmish games, and I'd recommend using it...
Necromunda was mostly about food and credits.
They did have a loot theme with Archaeotech, but that was there only loot corollary with scrap and wyrdstone. They did have a number of generic 'make money' missions though.

@Super Dave wrote:
1) The Dracon and their chosen gang of forces. (I.e. - wyches and their knives and the like, an entry level Haemonc and their few lolely wracks, the Dracon and some would-be warriors, escaping slaves who saw the portal thinking it could be an escape from Commoragh, the surviving remnants of the people who lived in that realm before the gate was closed- think zombies or mutants, or once there is a discovery of something valuable the bigger well equipped Kabals send in fully trained warriors, etc.)

2) The fact that there is both fluid inter-connectivity with the rest of Commoragh proper, as well as having some seclusion. This could make it more reasonable to say have ammo caps, or resource limitations. It would take time to send workers back through the gate to get supplies then come back in, yet still able (and most likely constantly happening) to happen.

3) The opening of new territory would also create a vacuum of just more places to live. With the hustling and bustling of the Dark City being pretty much spilling over, there could be a certain point where "civilians" (as much as Commorite populations not in Kabals can be called as such) could be going to this new realm to populate it.

4) The flow of information through a webway portal to a satellite realm would be impeded as well, although only slightly. Thereby givin greater chance to subterfuge and backstabbing. The sizeof someone's gang or their location would be known to those in that realm, but not back in the main part of the City so therefore reinforcements may be lacking or late or whatever. Plus deals made in the realm or vice versa may not translate across the portal.

1. I would note that the "generic" Commoragh streets already have all of this - including 'zombies' via The Parched.

2. I see this, though that's why I was angling more for street gangs and less for actual Kabals. Any Archon allowing Dracons to wander around without ammo is just a bad strategist or wants the Dracon dead. Whereas a street gang struggling to be noticed by the Kabals has built in iissues due to lack of powerful backers.

3. I agree with this, but I have to admit it feels like a brand new satellite realm would be too valuable to leave to a bunch of street gangs, and conversely also too valuable to just send in random roving battle bands for. Some Archon would take control of the gates, hold them, and secure the territory. Or, if there were not enough gates, they would tend to send a legitimate army. DO I seem crazy for thinking that? Open territories in Commoragh seem either really valuable or really meaningless to a Kabal - this feels like an odd midway point and I'm not sure why it is. Maybe this would make more sense if it was a new place (think like Soul Reaver - if you've read that) that isn't actually connected to Commoragh? Though at that point I feel we might lose some flavor.

4. I see no reason it needs to be a limited access zone to have lack of info make sense. DE are secretive by nature.

The Vect thing sounds amusing, but I think that's more for campaign design rather than game design.

@Gobsmakked wrote:
Along with success, increased skills, powers, and street cred would come expansion, as other lowlifes decide that they want to throw their lot in with whoever is in the ascendant. Then there's also the simple wannabe's, hangers-on, etc., and the potential for spies to infiltrate amongst the growing horde, so that any expansion would always have a highly unstable, random, and potentially disastrous element to it.
Hiring new gangers was always a major part of Necromunda, and even Mordheim.

I do see potential for including rules for bribery or something though - maybe some sort of loyalty trait?

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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Thu Jan 17 2013, 19:45

you could say as a downside to becoming more notorious is that the bounty on your head may increased by other players as well as NPCs making you more susceptible to being assassinated, captured or mutinied on, with the upside being that depending on who you help and hinder you may get more support from NPC reaver, hellion and scourge gangs, your retinue becomes larger, you gain access to better war gear etc- might be a way to balance it but at the same time making the game feel risky. e.g/ it might be a bad idea to backstab a kabal that has helped you but the rewards might be high if you are motivated to it by a third party? Again sort of thing that requiers a game master who has control over other matters

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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Fri Jan 18 2013, 02:56

i've read this thread from start to finish and i'm impressed, so i'd also like to join in with a thought or two of my own. firstly i think the idea of a satellite realm would make sense but maybe one that was closed when vect seized power to stop a rival kabal from sending reinforcements. now, it has been reopened (timed stasis lock or something?) and kabals are sending in their lowly members in first, alongside those not in kabals who are more mercenary types.
i think the idea i'm trying to convey with this is that it could be seen as a rite of passage for new entries into a kabal/coven/cult - a sybarite/dracon oversees their kabals newest recruits and as they gain experience and prove themselves the sybarite/dracon deems them worthy to join the full kabal and so take part in a real space raids. that way you can explain the levels seen in necromunda/mordheim and how they advance up the experience ladder. i don't mind knocking up a few trial tables for this if no one else is working on them.
i also think the idea of a necromunda 'skin' will work but i'm also thinking that the rules for vehicles in gorkamorka will work best - they can probably just be lifted as they are but with profiles for venoms/raiders. the only thing i can think that would need work is the fact we use skimmers instead of wheels/tracks, although this will make it more interesting if anything.
this looks like it is going to be a really interesting project, and look forward to seeing it through to the end result. good luck to everyone involved and can't wait to play once its all put together.
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Fri Jan 18 2013, 07:36

I'm also for the Necromunda "skin". Should we use their territory system albeit modified for the Dark City or more Mordheim like. Also the Necromunda outlaw rules would fit nice in the game. The hunger rules with kills providing another source of sustenance and the bounty rules for "higher" ranked enemies would balance the gap between different strength of gangs.

What has been a problem with Necromunda and Mordheim is the lack of endgame or the extremely powerful gangs. With my suggested fighting over the remains of a fallen Kabal the conquering Kabal would as the game progresses to higher levels or gang rating would take more interest in the minor areas they hadn't secured yet. Some kind of sponsorship fights, pit fights or other to please the Kabal or they might try fight against them. It would end in a fight against Kabalite troops.

Also another source for campaign ideas is Bordertown burning, a nice Mordheim fan made expansion.
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Fri Jan 18 2013, 11:56

I don't think this should have Necromunda style territories because the vast majority of the gangs aren't looking to settle and carve out a stake, they're looking to make their names and get out of there. Players shouldn't be encouraged to Empire build, they should be encouraged to carve their name into the soft fleshy parts of history.

I'm going to suggest we include several different campaign resolution methods but one I like is that you play for a certain amount of games, and then every gang with a with a Reputation/Infamy score of over x has made it and are inducted into proper Dark Eldar society and are winners, while the others are cut loose from their tenuous ties. Another advantage of this is you effectively put a cap on which will kick in before gangs get too large.

There are also plenty of handicapping mechanisms from GW's other skirmish games, although we might care to put a bit more bite on them. Tricky line to tread imo though - running a better gang should have rewards, losing your first few games shouldn't punish you overly.
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Fri Jan 18 2013, 12:50

Secret objective cards might work well for the games, that way you can cash them in even if you might "lose" a game you could still be gaining infamy. More infamy you gain allows you to take more "offer" cards- these could have challenges set from other Kabals, bountys, target assassination etc, with x amount of infamy you could take d3 + infamy value offer cards each "inbetween" part where you amass gangs, weapons etc and pick one to try and do. Cards could have different rewards for completing them as well as consequences for not completing them in the time given on the card?

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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Fri Jan 18 2013, 14:33

We were looking for something possibly change the name "Infamy" to... well what truly sways the minds and black hearts of Commorite society? Influence.

So we could go with the idea of Influence Points. Each point symbolizing the gang and it's leader's level of influence on the other denizens around him. In that Path to Glory game, linked by dangerous beans, they had this sort of thing (Favor Points, since you are a Chaos hero tryingt o win favor with the gods). Well here we're a budding Ganglord trying to start accumulating influence in Commorite day to day in order to advance his/her ends (after this gang war has come to a bloody conclusion and they are on top).

In that Path to Glory game, there were general ways to gain Favor points, so we could have a system where there are general ways to gain Influence Points. Playing a battle gets you Ganglord 2 Influence Points. Knocking the enemy Ganglord out of the fight grants 2 Influence Points.

This would include Grub's excellent idea about the secret objective cards. There could be three different kinds: Kabal Assignments, Wych Cult Arena Challenges, or Coven Handiwork.

By completing assignments from any of those pools of organizations, the player can gain more Influence Points. Then after certain as the Ganglord's Influence rises, they can start rolling on similar charts to that Path to Glory's advancement tables for each one of the gods. But for us, it would be which type of Commorite societal organization would you be getting favors from. Again we could have Kabal, Wych, and Coven favors possible. Then maybe even add one from the Commorite Tradesmen such as the builders and craftsmen working in Low Commoragh.

Just some thoughts on that.

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I will also say that the way the Chaos Warband in Path to Glory is "recruited" seems to work pretty well and look good. What does everyone else think?

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Archon Farath Mure
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Fri Jan 18 2013, 14:59

Influence (I like the name, by the way) should also limit what's available to the warband/gang/whatever, whether equipment or mercenaries. For example, a warband/gang/whatever couldn't even try to hire an Incubus or a Sslyth until it reaches a certain point. If it drops below that point, the mercenary leaves or maybe even turns on the warband/gang/whatever.
Of course, this probably went without saying.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Fri Jan 18 2013, 15:14

I like the influence mechanic core idea - I think we do need to futz around with the idea of money/barter to some degree though as well. Clearly you would need influence to hire an Incubus, but you'd still need to pay the tithe to his Temple. I'll need to dig out my Outlander book, but maybe Influence could be puzzled out sort of like Bounty Points, only in reverse? (or, rather not reverse, but just understanding that they are a desirable thing?)

I really am interested in the advancement along DE societal paths idea, I'd been toying with something similar in my head for the skill trees.

I actually am in favor of territories or at least something similar. Kabals are based off control of territories, I see no reason why a street gang wouldn't battle for the same. Maybe we do need to figure out some different mechanics for it, but the core concept feels sound to me.

Looks like there is a strong preference for being at least based on some aspect of 40k rules, and also probably to be Necro-compatible. Probably this makes sense since we're looking for it to be a sideways step for people.

Also looks like the interest is mostly for gangs that are, at most, affiliated with Kabals/other operating in an area favoring gang warfare (Be it just regular Commoragh streets or a pocket sub realm or something inbetween)

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wanderingblade
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Fri Jan 18 2013, 15:57

I agree there should be some monetary element.

@Thor665 wrote:
I

I really am interested in the advancement along DE societal paths idea, I'd been toying with something similar in my head for the skill trees.

One table for each society? Or the standard x tables open to each type?
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Super Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Commorragh - Birth of an idea   Fri Jan 18 2013, 16:39

I'd say one table for each part of society. They each have access to different units in the regular 40k game, and this stems from the idea that they have special access to those types of things as well as equipments and benefits just in general over something else.

Kabals have to deal with Covens for regeneration. Wych Cults and Covens have to use Kabals for raids to get arena fodder and torture fuel. Etc., etc., etc.

So it would make sense that each has their own "advancement tree" so to speak. I feel like there should be advancement possible that is open to any Commorite without having to choose a patron societal facet, but having each one have special things would make the choice of what part of society to side with that more exciting and thought provoking.

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