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PaulT
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PostSubject: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Mon Dec 03 2012, 07:37

Hi all just got a set of Wracks should I give the Acothyst the agoniser or the that weird looking rifle? is that just a splinter rifle? Also the codex says they have two poisoned weapons each, but they only have one attack each, what do they mean by 2 poisoned weapons if they only have 1 attack, apart from the Acothyst who has 2.

I also just read which I had no idea that poisoned weapons be it any poisoned weapon grants re-rolls on fail to wounds if your strength is equal or above your foe's toughness. So wracks with a Haemonculi have auto two pain tokens so FNP and FC makes them T4 on the attack? that's kicking space marine butt with re-roll fail to wound right?
So for example of a unit of ten Kabalite warriors manage to get two pain tokens they can re-roll any failed to wound from they're splinter rifles because they're now T4? oh hang on FC is only for CC so wouldn't work with ranged poisoned weapons right?
thanks Wink
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Mon Dec 03 2012, 07:49

The Acothyst's Rifle would be a Hexrifle (it's the only kind of rifle he can get, he can't be equiped with the Splinter rifle even if you wanted him to be). And no I wouldn't equip him with it, it seems like it would be a waste since Wracks just aren't made for ranged combat. If I had to take a Acothyst and give him special equipment I would probably just give him a venom blade, though the agonizer is the only reasonable option if you want a power weapon in the squad so it does have value in that respect.

As for the Wracks have two ccws (close combat weapons), the stat line only shows their base stats, not their stats modified by their equipment. So they have 1 base attack and they get +1 for having two ccws.

Poison gives you rerolls to wound if your strength is equal or higher to the target's toughness. Wracks with Furious Charge would indeed be able to reroll wounds vs marines (as with Furious Charge their Strength would be 4 on the charge, matching marine's 4 toughness). I don't really think they would be "kicking butt" though. The Marines would still get their 3+ armor save and wracks only get a few attacks each. Plus on the turn after they would no longer get their charge bonuses. It would be a tough fight.

As for your last question: No. Two Pain tokens on warriors would give them Furious Charge (+1 Strength on the charge) which would in no way affect their shooting.
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Mon Dec 03 2012, 09:03

Its a pity Wracks cannot take generic Power Weapons otherwise a Power Lance would be right up their ally - and when sporting 2 Pain Tokens they would be Str5 on the charge

I think for Acothyst a Venom Blade is the best option, as nothing else they take for CC ignores armour.

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Mon Dec 03 2012, 09:06

They can get Agonizer or Electro Whip both of which ignore armor (only up to 3+ of course but that's normal). Not that I would recommend either but...
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Mon Dec 03 2012, 15:50

if your using Wracks as dedicated assault unit, your best loadout would be either 10 w/ 2 liquifers, Acothyst w/ Agoniser, or 9 with the same set up (only 1 liquifer though) and a haemie. Remember that the stipulation on having two special weapons is now gone (unless they have the specialist special rule), so the Acothyst gets +1 attack for having 2 weapons (1 poison, 1 Agoniser). Also you can now pick which one you want to use, so againsts T3, it sometimes might be better to use the poison weapon (for the re-roll to wound, or being able to wound on 3s with furious charge)

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PaulT
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Tue Dec 04 2012, 07:23

All great advice thanks, well so far only have 5 so 5 more would be good? I was thinking that about with my incubi as I only have five of them but was told ten incubi would be too expensive points wise and attract too much fire so they wouldn't last. Not the case with Wracks? I'm surprised they have a BS of 4, good for mindless muscle minions of a Haemie don't you think? Oh and if you have the option of a liqifier take it? as they are as one said here once "the best flamer in the game" true?
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Tue Dec 04 2012, 15:12

The liquifier can be amazing, if you are already going to field 5 then the extra 10 points is almost a no brainer (even though you give up one attack for it). And wracks are more like Haemies in training as they are they voluntarily

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Tue Dec 04 2012, 15:18

the thing is incubi are 22 points a model and 10 of them would kill almost anything they hit

wracks are 10 points a model, and need the extra bodies to even be decent in combat.

As for why they have BS4, wracks arent actually mindless minions for haemies, they are haemies in training more or less. Basically any DE that really wants to be a haemie must first apprentice with a haemie, doing their menial work. That is why their BS is along line of other basic troops choice (wyches, warriors)

And finally what makes the liquifier a good weapon is the random AP. 50% of the time, your AP is 3 or lower (means MEQ get only invuil saves), and it can even go through termie armor 33% of the time. Infact other than leadership, its probably one of the only times you want to roll low Razz

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Rauky
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Wed Dec 05 2012, 05:01

@Murkglow wrote:
As for your last question: No. Two Pain tokens on warriors would give them Furious Charge (+1 Strength on the charge) which would in no way affect their shooting.


But if you had combat drugs on a unit with shooty shooty and got Grave Lotus putting your str at 4 would that give you rerolls?
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Wed Dec 05 2012, 05:23

No, a Ranged Weapon's "Strength" (or lack there of) is in no way connected to the model that's holding it (unless the weapon has a special rule that says otherwise but DE don't have any so...). You can never get rerolls to wound due to having poison + high strength (on the model) with a Dark Eldar Ranged Weapon.
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Rauky
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Wed Dec 05 2012, 05:52

sad was trying to find a way to kill more but hey that's ok
but if the wepon had a str value as well as poison would it????
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Wed Dec 05 2012, 07:22

Sure. If you had a Strength 4 Rifle that also had poison and you shot at a model with toughness 4 or less, then yes you'd get the reroll to wound. It's basically the same as melee, it's just in melee the weapon's strength is determined by the character holding it (usually) while at range the weapon's strength is determined by the weapon itself (usually).
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PaulT
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Wed Dec 05 2012, 13:29

I see, so strength 4 range weapon firing at a S4 or less model is pretty rare? Also getting back to wracks and incubi, I'm still a new player with Dark Eldar and as much fun as they are and as exquisite as the models are Its frustrating that anything shot at them and they're pretty much toast. I know they're a very tactical army but for some resilient grunt I was thinking to field 10 incubi as they have a marine's 3+ save and correct me if I'm wrong but 2 attacks base and 1 on the charge (if you charge) is 30 attacks with power swords, that's staggering is it not? is this a good idea? even at 220 points. Or should I field 10 wracks? but you're back to a volley of bolter fire and they're gone.
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Wed Dec 05 2012, 14:35

@PaulT wrote:
I see, so strength 4 range weapon firing at a S4 or less model is pretty rare?

No, a Space Marine Bolter is Strength 4, so it's pretty common. The rare part is a weapon that has poison. Few armies have that (Dark Eldar and Tyranids are the two that come to mind who make much use of poison) and even fewer have it combined with high strength ranged weaponry (Dark Eldar poison ranged weaponry has no strength at all for example).

@PaulT wrote:
Also getting back to wracks and incubi, I'm still a new player with Dark Eldar and as much fun as they are and as exquisite as the models are Its frustrating that anything shot at them and they're pretty much toast. I know they're a very tactical army but for some resilient grunt I was thinking to field 10 incubi as they have a marine's 3+ save and correct me if I'm wrong but 2 attacks base and 1 on the charge (if you charge) is 30 attacks with power swords, that's staggering is it not? is this a good idea? even at 220 points. Or should I field 10 wracks? but you're back to a volley of bolter fire and they're gone.

Sadly there isn't alot you can do about Dark Eldar dieing. Incubi 3+ armor is nice but they are very expensive, have no ranged attack, and are Elites making them a poor choice for buying alot of. On top of that they aren't very tough even if you take their armor into account. Everyone and their brother assumes they will be facing Marines so AP3+ weaponry is all over the place. Combine that with the fact that Incubi are T3 instead of Marine T4 and that they are a small part of your army (unlike marines where every single thing they have is armor 3+ or better) and Incubi will get blow to bits in a single turn of shooting too.

If you want something that's tough enough to withstand alot of shooting, Reaver Jetbikes, Grotesques, Talos, Beastmaster Packs, and Harliquines are your best bets. Reavers get T4 and have a very good cover save when they are turboboosting. Grots and Talos have very high toughness and multiple wounds which should see them weather a couple turns of fire if they have some cover. Beastmaster Packs tend to have a fair number of wounds as well plus Invulnerable saves/the potential for a decent cover save (make sure to run baron sathonyx with them if you use them). Finally Harlies can have a massive cover save thanks to their Veil of Tears (be sure to read the FAQ). Saying all that though, be warned that each of these have their own weaknesses.
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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Wed Dec 05 2012, 17:03

Actually, Dark Eldar splinter weaponry counts as having Strength 2. So I suppose we could reroll wounds on, uh... Grots and Ratlings?

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Wed Dec 05 2012, 17:32

Under the Poison rule it says "Unless otherwise stated, Poisoned weapons are treated as having a Strength of I." was this change somewhere?
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Saintspirit
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Wed Dec 05 2012, 17:46

No, at least not from what I have seen - poisoned weapons with strength X (and therefore no stated strength) counts as having a strength of 1, not 2. As such it looks like the majority of poisoned weapons won't get to re-roll to wound very often - are there even any units with T 1?

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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Wed Dec 05 2012, 17:48

You can make them T1 with some of the psychic powers that reduce stats but I can't think of any that are naturally T1.
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PaulT
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Thu Dec 06 2012, 04:53

So in your opinions in the 40k universe how competitive are Dark Eldar? as competitive as any other race if played proper;y? The few games Ive played with my army were great because they are a fun army and very interesting to play but each game I almost had to drop my pants and run around the tables as almost all of my 1800 points of Dark Eldar were wiped out. I still have a lot to learn about playing them but jeez I didn't stand a chance against Marines or Tau. Maybe i should get more Raavers, I have 6 and more Cronos, I have 2. I have 20 wyches 10 kabalite and 10 true born, apart from my other boots on the ground so can you run them like a horde army perhaps? or just too expensive points wise to do that? I'm asking how do I win???
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Rauky
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Thu Dec 06 2012, 05:24

look at the army lists for ideas on well your list, alot of them also put a bass strat with them Twisted Evil
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Thu Dec 06 2012, 05:27

Yes I consider Dark Eldar completely competitive. They are not an easy or forgiving army however. You can't just walk your guys up the board or sit in place and win like Marines, IG, or the like (this is a broad generalization and not necessarily fair to how much skill those armies take to play). DE are not as cheap as IG and not tough like Marines.

Anyway, Transports/Ravagers are the Dark Eldar way to win (at least that's the "standard" way, there are other more unique methods). Venoms are some of the best units in the game when it comes to killing infantry while Ravagers (and in a pinch Raiders) with Dark Lances open up transports for your venoms to shoot the juicy insides. Stay out of range as much as possible and make sure that when you hit them, you hit them hard enough that they can't hit you back (or that the return hit is weakened significantly).
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Rauky
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Thu Dec 06 2012, 19:00

and remember to focus fire tanks and units down with the respected weapons of the venoms and ravagers
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PaulT
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PostSubject: Re: wracks and poisoned weapons question   Fri Dec 07 2012, 09:50

Thanks guys lots of food for thought, got to practice heaps more, but that's the fun part Very Happy
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