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 Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.

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bountylord
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PostSubject: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 16:32

This has probably been mentioned somewhere else, but I was wondering, if I had a squad of reavers with a farseer included within it if I was able to fortune the farseer and have the psychic power effect the whole reaver squad. I realize that you cannot target a DE unit, but what I could argue that I am targeting the farseer and that the farseer gave the reroll to the squad of reavers. If this is the case I feel like we could build seer council equivalents for half the price. What does everyone think? Is this just hopefully thinking or a legal unit?
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Murkglow
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 16:46

If I remember correctly the IC himself can't be targeted like that. You need to target the unit which he is joined to which in this case would be the Reavers and thus not valid. This might be a relevant passage:

Quote :
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.


Last edited by Murkglow on Thu Nov 29 2012, 16:59; edited 1 time in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 16:47

You can't cast the power solely on the Farseer whilst he is part of a unit. It is cast on the unit as a whole.

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bountylord
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 16:49

guess it was just wishfull thinking... I ran them in a game the other day and with feel no pain they lost 1 bike through like 3 rounds of necrons rapid firing. End of that now I guess.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 17:12

the only way this would work is if the Farseer was solo at the start of the turn (when fortune is cast) and then he moves and joins the reavers.

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jb7090
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 17:58

@bountylord wrote:
This has probably been mentioned somewhere else, but I was wondering, if I had a squad of reavers with a farseer included within it if I was able to fortune the farseer and have the psychic power effect the whole reaver squad. I realize that you cannot target a DE unit, but what I could argue that I am targeting the farseer and that the farseer gave the reroll to the squad of reavers. If this is the case I feel like we could build seer council equivalents for half the price. What does everyone think? Is this just hopefully thinking or a legal unit?

The problem comes from the fact that the farseer joins the reavers and thus it becomes a DE unit. If, say and Archon, joined a unit of guardians who had a farseer attached, then that unit(and by extension the Archaon) could benefit from fortune because its still an Eldar unit.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 18:03

Nope, look at the independant characters and ongoing effects section P.39 very clearly lays out that if you only affected the Farseer then the effects would not transfer to the unit.

And if you want to get any crazy idea like sticking an Archon with shadowfield in an Eldar unit and targeting that Eldar unit to vicariously give the Archon 2++ rerollable, you can forget it. To be an Eldar unit all members of the unit must come from the Eldar codex therefore not a valid target of fortune.

Also if you targeted the unit first and then moved the Archon in, p.39 again clearly lays out that the Archon would not gain the benefit.

Edit i didn't see the post before mine as we must have posted at the same time. It was FAQ'd that Dark Eldar do not count as Eldar therefore it would not still be an Eldar unit and you wouldn't be able to give the benefits to any of the unit members because you couldn't cast it at all

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jb7090
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 18:11

@Seshiru wrote:


And if you want to get any crazy idea like sticking an Archon with shadowfield in an Eldar unit and targeting that Eldar unit to vicariously give the Archon 2++ rerollable, you can forget it. To be an Eldar unit all members of the unit must come from the Eldar codex therefore not a valid target of fortune.


Please point this out to me in writing because I have seen many lists that involve harlequins, a farseer and an archon getting fortuned.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 18:25

@jb7090 wrote:
@Seshiru wrote:


And if you want to get any crazy idea like sticking an Archon with shadowfield in an Eldar unit and targeting that Eldar unit to vicariously give the Archon 2++ rerollable, you can forget it. To be an Eldar unit all members of the unit must come from the Eldar codex therefore not a valid target of fortune.


Please point this out to me in writing because I have seen many lists that involve harlequins, a farseer and an archon getting fortuned.

I think Seshiru is incorrect. When an IC joins a unit he become part of that unit for all rules purposes and therefore a DE character in an Eldar unit is treated as an Eldar for rules purposes.

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Crazy_Ivan
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 19:31

Eldar are our battle brohers, so from the allies section of the rulebook pg112:-

Battle Brothers are treated as 'friendly units' from all
points of view. This rneans, for example, that Battle Brothers:

. Can be joined by allied Independent Characters.

. Are counted as being friendly units for the targeting of
psychic powersr abilities and so on.

. Hlowever, note that not even Battle Brothers can embark in
allied transport vehicles.

so you can cast on a unit of dark eldar with a farseer, but the farseer cannot ride aboard our transports.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 19:53

@Crazy_Ivan: You can cast the big rule book powers yes. However, the codex eldar powers only affect eldar, and as per the eldar FAQ.

Quote :

Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 19:55

@Mushkilla wrote:
@Crazy_Ivan: You can cast the big rule book powers yes. However, the codex eldar powers only affect eldar, and as per the eldar FAQ.

Quote :

Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

Those powers need to be cast on an Eldar unit and therefore cannot be cast on a Dark Eldar unit. A DE character can however join an Eldar unit and benefit from the powers if cast on that unit. It doesn't work the other way round though, with an Eldar character joining a DE unit.

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Zaakath
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 20:12

Can always just use the basic divination powers... they affect friendly units, not eldar units.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 20:39

@Count Adhemar wrote:

When an IC joins a unit he become part of that unit for all rules purposes and therefore a DE character in an Eldar unit is treated as an Eldar for rules purposes.

This is exactly the problem, the Archon is now a member of the unit for rules purposes. It doesn't say or even imply that the independant character gains any of the traits of that unit or vice versa (infact it explicitly points out the opposite). A perfect example is having a non-Jump infantry troop join a Jump infantry unit, by the same arguement he would be considered to be jump infantry.
The reason I say that is the problem is the Archon is part of the unit, he is not Eldar, the spell targets and Eldar unit, not a unit that is mostly Eldar.

There isn't anything in writting that matches exactly this scenerio, but many of the FAQs have similar updates, for example the blood angels, that modify the abilities so they still work and only affect the members of the unit purchased from the Blood Angels Codex with out the update they couldn't be used which made blood angles players angry. I would expect a similar update to the eldar FAQ but until it happens you can argue your allowed to do it, but it's like argueing that Jetbikes don't need grenades because they don't "ignore difficult terrain" they go over it

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 21:37

It's really not an issue. The rules say

Quote :
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes

Is the unit an Eldar unit? Yes. He counts as part of the Eldar unit and therefore benefits from any powers that are cast on the Eldar unit.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 21:58

You have a good point as usual, but I don't see how it's any different than the jump infantry scenario.

Are Hellions type Jump Infanty? Yes. If an Archon joins hellions is he therefore Jump Infantry? No.

The question of whether or not it is an Eldar unit, I can't just say yes to that; it is afterall it's a mixed unit of both Eldar and Dark Eldar. I would say that logically the unit should still be able to be targeted by it but the Archon shouldn't benefit from it but unfortunately we don't have that.

Also what is trying to be accomplished is to have is Fortuning an Archon shadow field (why else would we do it), where the FAQ says we are not allowed to directly do that so looking for an indirect way that isn't really clear that it can be done (being part of the unit does it mean he gains all the unit's traits or not).

But in the end, this will probably stay in a slightly grey area until they FAQ it further

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 22:11

The character rules specify that characters retain their own unit type when joined with a unit. So if an Archon joins a Hellion unit he still remains Infantry and does not become Jump Infantry.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Fortune Farseer Effecting his squad.   Thu Nov 29 2012, 22:30

The imperial guard FAQ stats "Can an allied Independant character benifit from Imperial Guard Order if they have join an Imperial Guard squad that successfully recieves an order? No"

The Blood angels FAQ has several similar points (although they actual ammended the wording to make it more clear)

But since their isn't an FAQ that says whether or not you can use Fortune on a Eldar unit to have an allied independant character gain the benefit, then I suppose you are technically correct.

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