HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Comparing Survivability

Go down 
AuthorMessage
Unit3571
Slave


Posts : 14
Join date : 2012-11-18

PostSubject: Comparing Survivability   Mon Nov 19 2012, 03:01

I am going to run three 10 man squads of Warriors with a base Haemonculus in the squad to grant them all FNP. I was wondering what the experts here think of this setup. Too expensive? Worth the survivability boost? I am trying a Footslog Dark Eldar army so I'm obviously comparing this setup to placing the models in a Raider. Speed is not the question here. Only survivability. Thanks in advance for any replies to this discussion.


Last edited by Unit3571 on Wed Nov 21 2012, 07:54; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
DarkMinion
Slave
avatar

Posts : 21
Join date : 2012-10-22
Location : San Diego, CA

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Mon Nov 19 2012, 04:11

i'm new, but if survivability is what you are looking for, for an extra point, why not use wracks instead?
is speed is not a factor, i'd go with the wracks. they start with a pain token, add a haemi to give them FNP and furious charge to start...nice!

today, mushkilla posted a bat rep where he was testing survivability if fact.
sorry, i don't know how to post the link for you, but if you can, check it out, its posted in the realspace raids area.

Dark Minion

_________________
[b][i]

-If limited life is God's decree, then I shall defy it!!!
Back to top Go down
Murkglow
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 242
Join date : 2012-10-17

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Mon Nov 19 2012, 04:23

The reason why you'd not use Wracks is that they have no ranged attack (except for Liquifiers). Warriors have the rifles (which are quite good for a basic grunt's weapon) and they get special weapons (Dark Lances or Splinter Cannons are a big deal, especially if he's going foot slogging). Part of the reason speed might not be an issue is because warriors don't need to get close. It's really not a simple case of "well why not swap" as they don't perform the same jobs at all. Not to say he couldn't make a wrack army but it would be a completely different army to a warrior based one.

As for the original question, it's hard to say. If we were talking about a 20 man blob then by all means a Haemo would be a great buy. At 10 men though it's a closer call. You're basically paying 5 points each for the FnP (and an extra body) which is a significant cost increase over your basic warrior. Still it is nice to have. I would say don't give up anything huge but if you have an extra 100 points after you get your must haves bought then it wouldn't be a terrible way to spend them.
Back to top Go down
Unit3571
Slave


Posts : 14
Join date : 2012-11-18

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Mon Nov 19 2012, 04:26

Thanks but I meant the survivability of Warriors with a Haemonculus as opposed to Warriors in a Raider.

Edit - double post merged. Gob. Good point Murkglow, I am just looking for a way to make the Warrior squads more survivable without the use of transports.
Back to top Go down
Mushkilla
Arena Champion
avatar

Posts : 4014
Join date : 2012-07-16
Location : Toroid Arena

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Mon Nov 19 2012, 08:19

@DarkMinion wrote:

today, mushkilla posted a bat rep where he was testing survivability if fact.
sorry, i don't know how to post the link for you, but if you can, check it out, its posted in the realspace raids area.

Here's the link. Smile

Do you have a DE army already already? If you do experiment away, if you don't I would steer clear of foot lists, many a DE player has skimped on transports in the past only to end up with an unplayable army.

Despite just having played a somewhat successful game with a DE foot list, I would have to advise against it, unless you have a solid plan. As for survivability if you have a 4+ cover save then at best your looking at the equivalent of a 3+ save (when combined with FNP), this gets ignored by anything S6 or higher. But you can't really compare this to what a raider gives you in terms of survivability, as the mobility it gives you lets you stay out of range.

Honestly, in most cases Dark Eldar footlists lead to disappointment one way or another. Dark Eldar are an army built around their transports, they perform a variety of utility roles: fire support, mobility, screening, protection from small arms fire, night shields (protection), splinter racks (damage boost), trophies (leadership buff), etc. You can't really play them like marines.

Also running an all foot list will preclude you from taking ravagers or any vehicles in other slots other than flyers, as our vehicles need armour saturation to survive, and without transports you will have no saturation.

If you tell us more about your plan, maybe we give you more specific advice. Smile

_________________
Latest Report: BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
Pragmatic Realspace Raider Series


“Even the Black Buzzards thought highly of him, and those maniacs were renowned for hating everyone.” - Tantalus, by Braden Campbell
Back to top Go down
baster
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 126
Join date : 2012-10-21
Location : norfolk

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Mon Nov 19 2012, 08:33

I have to agree with mushkilla, being relatively new, i only had foot troops with 1 raider for a while and didnt enjoy footslogging 1 bit. the troops were too fragile range and LoS was always an issue, as for survivability, ok if the raider blows it could be a disaster but on foot everything that shoots at them kills them, the raiders NS or FF keeps them alive and in range and able to fire with all weapons at bs if you only move 6", then you have the run away speed of a raider if something nasty gets close, dont underestimate a raiders speed, 30" when combining move and going all out, gets you out of any difficult spot.
Back to top Go down
Unit3571
Slave


Posts : 14
Join date : 2012-11-18

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Mon Nov 19 2012, 10:30

Well, my 2k army plan is going to look something like this -

Army List:
Haemonculus - 55 points total (in Warrior squad)
-Venom Blade
Haemonculus - 55 points total (in Warrior squad)
-Venom Blade
Haemonculus - 55 points total (in Warrior squad)
-Venom Blade
Razorwing Jetfighter w/ DLs - 155 points total
- Night shield
Razorwing Jetfighter w/ DLs - 155 points total
- Night shield
Razorwing Jetfighter w/ DLs - 155 points total
- Night shield
5x Scourges - 134 points total
- 2 Heat Lances
5x Scourges - 134 points total
- 2 Heat Lances
5x Scourges - 134 points total
- 2 Heat Lances
5x Scourges - 134 points total
- 2 Heat Lances
10x Wracks - 100 points total
10x Wracks - 100 points total
5x Kabalite Trueborn - 110 points total
- 2 Dark Lances
5x Kabalite Trueborn - 110 points total
- 2 Dark Lances
5x Kabalite Trueborn - 110 points total
- 2 Dark Lances
10x Kabalite Warriors - 100 points total
-Splinter Cannon
10x Kabalite Warriors - 100 points total
-Splinter Cannon
10x Kabalite Warriors - 100 points total
-Splinter Cannon

One Haemo in each Warrior squad for FNP so they can do their thing. Razorwings for infantry destruction and cleanup(DLs), camping Trueborn squads for cleanup with their DLs. Objective camping wracks. Scourges for speedy vehicle destruction and versatility.(2 squads start on board, 2 in reserve to deep strike)

Modded - please check the forum rules about not posting the point values of specific wargear and upgrades. Gob.
Back to top Go down
csjarrat
Kabalite Warrior


Posts : 211
Join date : 2012-02-06

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Tue Nov 20 2012, 09:38

Well good luck! You have plenty of shooting but next to no mobility.
Another concern is total lack of close combat ability.
I'd take a harlequin squad or two. They can reliably footslog now that they've been FAQ'd and are no slouches in combat
Back to top Go down
leinmann
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 26
Join date : 2012-09-14
Location : launceston, cornwall, uk

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Wed Nov 21 2012, 00:29

what sort of opponent do you regularly face? some in mind some races are superior in shooting (IG and tau as examples) and have the capacity to match in combat too, whereas melee heavy lists usually have the ability to get into a good flanking and/or outmanouvering position (CSM, SM and craftworld eldar can all fall easily into this category). to maximise this lists potential you'd have to hug cover, which may not always be an option but there are ways around it. each squad would have to be able to support another with a) having overlapping arcs of fire and b) be close enough to each other to back each other up in case they get charged (which shouldn't be too difficult considering how fleet works under the new rules).
just my thoughts though, good luck and happy hunting.
Back to top Go down
Tony Spectacular
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 225
Join date : 2012-07-31
Location : Philadelphia

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Wed Nov 21 2012, 01:09

FWIW, if I were to run Haems in Warrior units, I'd take LFG instead of VB. If you get your Warriors into CC they're hosed. However, if you drop their PTs off to the Warriors and then send them off with the Wracks those VBs have a chance to do some damage.

You said that you intend for your Wracks to camp objectives. 10 is a LOT of bodies to camp with. If you split those units in half, giving them one LFG each, you end up with roughly equivalent camping potential (especially in cover), some overwatch protection, and a few extra points. 100 extra points, in fact, which would be enough for an ADL with Quad Gun, behind which you could place one objective and place one of the Wrack units, and if you dropped even one of your Trueborn squads down to 4 (only losing one rifle) you could upgrade one Haem to Ancient, giving him BS5 with which to man the gun.

And if you dropped one Trueborn squad altogether you could gain another Haem with VB and another 5 man Wrack squad, gaining both the ADL and a whole new crew of FNP, FC, 2+ poison mayhem.
Back to top Go down
1++
Hekatrix


Posts : 1036
Join date : 2011-06-27
Location : Sydney

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Wed Nov 21 2012, 02:24

What sort of armies do you face mostly?

_________________
"I'm alive from this pain!"
Back to top Go down
Unit3571
Slave


Posts : 14
Join date : 2012-11-18

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Wed Nov 21 2012, 03:14

Thanks for the input guys. I'll be dropping down the Wrack squad size for sure, i don't know what for though...maybe some Parasite Engines to give the Trueborn/Scourges FNP. I mostly play against IG, Tyranids, and Eldar. In your experience, do you think I have enough/ survivable enough units to not have them get blasted off the table? That is my main worry. That they are just too feeble and not in enough numbers to overwhelm the opponent. Or does the list seem balanced enough?
Back to top Go down
Ferox77
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 27
Join date : 2012-11-01

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Wed Nov 21 2012, 04:02

I play against Eldar allot and my opponent always brings war walkers. Their duel scatter lasers (8 S6 shots each) will ignore your warriors FNP. Venoms are really helpful against tyranids. You might have trouble against them.
Back to top Go down
Mushkilla
Arena Champion
avatar

Posts : 4014
Join date : 2012-07-16
Location : Toroid Arena

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Wed Nov 21 2012, 07:00

The first thing that jumps out at me is you don't have a counter assault unit. Against the assault armies out there this will make all the difference, as their hardest troops will get to you, all be it slightly depleted, perfect for a counter assault unit to clean up. However without one anything that gets into your lines will be doing a lot of damage. You simply don't have the mobility to redeploy.

@Unit3571 wrote:
maybe some Parasite Engines to give the Trueborn/Scourges FNP. I mostly play against IG, Tyranids, and Eldar. In your experience, do you think

As you don't have any vehicles (flyers don't count due to their unique nature), if you were to field any of the pain engines/parasite engines you would need to go all or nothing, one or two Monstrous Creatures will get slaughtered in a 1500-2000pts game as their simply isn't enough heavy weapons targets for saturation. The other thing to bear in mind is the cronos has short range, and is very inaccurate so can easily kill our own infantry, which unfortunately does not generate pain tokens.

You didn't answer my question, do you already have the models for this army? Or are you creating a list that you want to build/paint up to?

_________________
Latest Report: BR4: The Repugnant Ramblers Vs Imperial Knights - 1250pts
Pragmatic Realspace Raider Series


“Even the Black Buzzards thought highly of him, and those maniacs were renowned for hating everyone.” - Tantalus, by Braden Campbell
Back to top Go down
Unit3571
Slave


Posts : 14
Join date : 2012-11-18

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Wed Nov 21 2012, 08:02

I do not have the models yet so I'm glad you guys are giving me some advice because I would rather not play DE than have a transport heavy list. Maybe I should look elsewhere for a footslogging army. I knew that DE were not the greatest army to foot slog with but I thought it was still possible to create an effective list. You guys are convincing me otherwise, which is OK. I actually thank you for stopping me from essentially wasting a ton of money on an army that will not work the way I wish to use it. So is that kind of the bottom line? You veteran DE players think footslogging will really just not be a good idea for this army?
Back to top Go down
tlronin
Wych


Posts : 818
Join date : 2011-06-23
Location : The Netherlands

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Wed Nov 21 2012, 14:17

Maybe we should first establish what you' re asking.

Are we talking about tournaments? Well then you' ll have a really hard time with DE anyway and you' ll need the cheeselists.

Or are we talking about having fun with your friends or down at your local club? Well then I' ll say what I've said a couple of times now to beginners... Buy whatever model you want, build any list you want and start having fun!

If we are talking about tourney's, then I'd say no. Spend your money on another army. If we' re talking about having fun and you insist on a footslogging DE list, then... Sure, we got some idea's for yah down here in The Dark City! But you gotta learn what makes the DE tick (as with any army). They are feeble indeed, so you want to hit first. DE are per definition not resilient. That is why most archons here will act a bit suprised at your footslogging lists. You need to negate the obvious weaknesses of such lists with DE. So... How can archons negate this a little bit?

Well, we' ll often start looking at our Coven variant indeed. Do you know why? A lot more toughness, strength, FnP. BUT... slow. So you' ll have to figure a way to get them at the enemy's throaght fast enough to give 'm hell. Well, then your eye might fall upon the Webway Portal. Well it should if it hasn't already.

You' ll have to balance off our Coven stuff for AI and AT, see what half should begin on the table and see what half should come from the portal.

So yeah, it's ALOT more difficult with DE to succesfully achieve what you want. But MUCH more rewarding than let's say Space Marines. So i'm not the one that's going to tell you that you shouldn't. It's really up to you.

_________________
Archon of the kabal of The Bleeding Hand.
Member of local Dutch community: http://www.sweetlakesentinels.nl
Back to top Go down
Unit3571
Slave


Posts : 14
Join date : 2012-11-18

PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   Wed Nov 21 2012, 21:40

OK, well first off,
I'm not planning on playing any tournaments with this list , just among friends who are competitive about the game.
Also, I never really saw the WWP as a viable strategy because it just seemed like the bearer would get shot off the table immediately because the opponent is more than likely going to focus all of their fire against it. It would be better if you could DS the bearer into their deployment zone but that then brings up my other problem with the WWP. Your units have to stand around and get shot at after popping out of it. Even with t4 and FNP that is a dire situation to be in, even in cover. A list full of Wracks, Grots and Talos' sounds super epic too. Twisted Evil Even if I was to play a full Coven list, I would want to use the actual Wrack models because they look awesome (like everything else in the army), but I don't have the money for that right now. Seeing as in the Wracks are sold in groups of 5 for the price of 10 other troops. Perhaps in the future I will return to this army, and join your ranks in the Dark City. I look forward to it. Thank you all for your help and advice. It is greatly appreciated! Smile If you still want to ask me stuff feel free. I'm keeping this account.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Comparing Survivability   

Back to top Go down
 
Comparing Survivability
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

GENERAL DRUKHARI DISCUSSION

 :: Drukhari Discussion
-
Jump to: