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 LOS to Vehicles and Cover Saves from Wrecks

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Damnosus
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PostSubject: LOS to Vehicles and Cover Saves from Wrecks   Wed Nov 14 2012, 03:44

So a couple of questions came up during the games I played last night.

First, I could have sworn that wrecked vehicles conferred a 4+ cover save (I thought I had read it somewhere on these forums) and the craters left behind from an exploded vehicle conferred a 5+ cover save. I can't find the ruling on either so I am just looking for a quick answer on this one.

Second, what counts as the "hull" of our raiders/ravagers? I had two instances where my opponent could only see maybe a millimeter of the ram blades (it was one of the old ravagers) and the top of the sail (just the point) and in the first the vehicle was allowed to be shot at and in the second it wasn't. I am just rather confused as to what is considered "ornamental" on our larger vehicles.

Thanks!
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Tiri Rana
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PostSubject: Re: LOS to Vehicles and Cover Saves from Wrecks   Wed Nov 14 2012, 12:58

Wrecked vehicles confer a 5+ cover save, because they become a piece of area terrain. The same is true for exploding vehicles, that are replaced with a piece of scattered wreckage or a crater, that counts as area terrain and confers a 5+ cover save. (see page 74)

The new rule is a little bit clearer than the old one, but it still only talks about turret and hull. It pretty much says that everything that is not purely ornamental (like gun barrels, antennas or banner poles) can be targeted. And at least in my opinion neither our ram, nor sails are ornamental, but an integral component of our vehicles. (see page 73)

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Blind_Baku
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PostSubject: Re: LOS to Vehicles and Cover Saves from Wrecks   Wed Nov 14 2012, 14:34

@Tiri Rana wrote:
at least in my opinion neither our ram, nor sails are ornamental, but an integral component of our vehicles. (see page 73)

Here I disagree. The prow, especially if you did not PAY for a shock prow, is ornamental as I don't like the look of a raider without one, but would remove it if it came to the other player claiming LoS to it. Likewise the sails can also be purchased so, especially if you did not PAY for an Enhanced Aether Sail, it is ornamental, as I dont like the look of a raider without one, and unless it is for increasing speed (which would require it to not work as a wind sail as we go faster than and against the wind so it would actually cause drag) or is used as a 'counter rudder' (sail functions in the mid ship to help turning as a rudder, allowing for better turns by shifting to go 'against' the other rudder) it is actually a massive draw back (again causes drag like a beast).

Both are ornamental and NOT needed for the functioning of the craft, so at the least if you didn't pay for them, treat them as bling and spinners, and no body wants to shoot you in the spinners! thats fat loots.
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Damnosus
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PostSubject: Re: LOS to Vehicles and Cover Saves from Wrecks   Fri Nov 16 2012, 16:02

So no consensus on what is considered the hull?
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Blind_Baku
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PostSubject: Re: LOS to Vehicles and Cover Saves from Wrecks   Fri Nov 16 2012, 18:16

Unfortunately, no. But if I was playing against someone who insisted that the sails and prows were vehicle critical, they'd be pulled off immediately. Or the antenna on his tank and the teeth on the Dozers and every little thing that sticks off is equally critical to his...
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: LOS to Vehicles and Cover Saves from Wrecks   Fri Nov 16 2012, 19:10

@Blind_Baku wrote:
Unfortunately, no. But if I was playing against someone who insisted that the sails and prows were vehicle critical, they'd be pulled off immediately. Or the antenna on his tank and the teeth on the Dozers and every little thing that sticks off is equally critical to his...

Agreed, but most people argue the sail is important for the raider despite the big thruster at the back! It's a shame GW were not a bit clearer, in fact I'm going to email their FAQ team on the subject in the hope that one day we get a clear answer. Very Happy

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Blind_Baku
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PostSubject: Re: LOS to Vehicles and Cover Saves from Wrecks   Fri Nov 16 2012, 21:17

@Mushkilla wrote:
Agreed, but most people argue the sail is important for the raider despite the big thruster at the back! It's a shame GW were not a bit clearer, in fact I'm going to email their FAQ team on the subject in the hope that one day we get a clear answer. Very Happy

Thats why mine are NOT and will not be glued on. The prows I can't argue as much but to me they are equivical to the dozers on the imperial tanks and if I can only see a dozer (from the side facing). then I'm not going to say I can hit the tank. If I can shoot you in the shirt collar I can assume it will not do much more than ruin your shirt, maybe a minor burn but just superficial damage. Unfortunately the prows are glued on, though I am looking into swapping them for forward mounted Lances freeing the turrent space for more bodies and fun stuff like that.
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Damnosus
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PostSubject: Re: LOS to Vehicles and Cover Saves from Wrecks   Sat Nov 17 2012, 02:18

Well if you look up the definition for the word "hull," the word which is used for determining what is and what is not counted for line of sight, it clearly states that a hull is not "the masts, engines, or superstructure." So the sails cannot count regardless as they are essentially masts. I am pretty sure that the rudder does not count either as it is so closely related to the engines. The only piece that I am not a hundred percent sure on is the prow thing, though my guess is that it would not fall under the hull definition as it is definitely not a part of the "frame or body" of the ship.

So if anyone gives you crap, just pull out a dictionary.
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Darkgreen Pirate
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PostSubject: Re: LOS to Vehicles and Cover Saves from Wrecks   Sat Nov 17 2012, 11:41

I agree with damnosus and others above, "hull" is what you target, and disembark from. Typically equipment cannot be targeted; prows, sails, dozer blades, HK missiles, searchlights etc. I usually clarify this with my opponent beforehand, i.e. I will not disembark/draw line of sight from the decorative shock prow nor can it be targeted. (juss like tha deffrollas on me battul wagonz) Er, rather, the deffrolla on Ork Battlewagons. Wink
If my opponent insists otherwise, you can be sure I will spin the sails (they arent glued) off to the side at least once and disembark from that point, just to prove a point Twisted Evil

My rule of thumb is: If you cannot draw LOS or disembark from it, then it cannot be counted as viable for line of sight to it. However it has been my experience that on the other hand you have different fingers.

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Blind_Baku
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PostSubject: Re: LOS to Vehicles and Cover Saves from Wrecks   Mon Nov 19 2012, 13:52

@Darkgreen Pirate wrote:
My rule of thumb is: If you cannot draw LOS or disembark from it, then it cannot be counted as viable for line of sight to it. However it has been my experience that on the other hand you have different fingers.
Spoit on, otherwise I will model for advantage and EVERY raider gets the long shock prow (which is where I disembark from) from the ravager set and ravagers get 'snub nosed' (Green stuff the mounting point and make it flush)
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Zaakath
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PostSubject: Re: LOS to Vehicles and Cover Saves from Wrecks   Mon Nov 19 2012, 15:59

Just need to let your opponent know when the game starts what you use to disembark from. If you use the bit of armor plate right behind the prow, that becomes your hull. If you use the prow, that does. I've seen it both ways and tend to like the armor portion. That also limits some movement and deployment, but using the ram can garner an advantage when placing vehicles for deployment (sideways raider, turning 90*, gain 3+ inches easily on your "first move" and deployment range). Which I really hate seeing, but will use on occasion to prove a point to some people sadly.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: LOS to Vehicles and Cover Saves from Wrecks   Mon Nov 19 2012, 16:06

I'm fairly sure that if someone insisted that my sails were targetable then they would also be seeing me disembarking troops onto the higher floors of ruins/buildings etc.

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wittykid
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PostSubject: Re: LOS to Vehicles and Cover Saves from Wrecks   Mon Nov 19 2012, 20:14

Pretty much use what everyone else has already been saying as a guideline, if your opponent can use that piece to draw line of sight to your raider then you can use it for drawing line of sight to his stuff and disembarking. I know when I play with someone this will be something I make sure we reach an agreement on before hand as it could go either way although the sail is a bit of a stretch.

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mug7703
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PostSubject: Re: LOS to Vehicles and Cover Saves from Wrecks   Tue Nov 20 2012, 03:22

I'd have thought the Ram was part of the hull as I'm happy to measure from there to disembark my troops. I can't really do that if it's purely ornamental. I'd generally rule the sails aren't targetable though.
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