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 Tournament list w/o??

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Deyfluff
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PostSubject: Tournament list w/o??   Tue Oct 16 2012, 05:51

Are there competitive DE lists that can take on a variety of armies without spam? The lists I often see people take for tournaments are venom spam, raider rush and blasterborn. Do we have anything else? Pure curiousity...
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Darklight
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PostSubject: Re: Tournament list w/o??   Tue Oct 16 2012, 07:15

Competitive lists are unfortunatly spam lists.

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Zaakath
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PostSubject: Re: Tournament list w/o??   Tue Oct 16 2012, 07:22

I've been toying with a, what I consider well rounded list:

-Archon fit how you like
-Trueborn in a raider with NS, 8 shardcarbines, 2 SC
-10 warriors with SC and Blaster in a raider with racks
2x -5 warriors with blaster in a venom with extra SC
-9 wyches with haemy (liquifier gun, venom blade) with a special weapon, HWG and hekatrix with venom blade in a raider (and have been trying gristly trophies)
-8 wyches with haemy (liquifier gun, venom blade) with a special weapon, HWG and hekatrix with venom blade in a raider (and have been trying gristly trophies)
-3 reavers with caltrops
-3 reavers with heat lance
-2 ravagers with night shields (one DL, one Dis)
-Nightwing with flickerfield.

comes in at 1849. So far the testing has gone well, with 3 wins and a Tie vs other tournament lists (though nothing too terribly cheesy here thus far).

I've been tempted to make one of the warrior squads in venoms into wyches with HWG for some throw-away anti tank (land raider anyone?).

That's just me though.
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Deyfluff
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PostSubject: Re: Tournament list w/o??   Tue Oct 16 2012, 07:43

@Darklight wrote:
Competitive lists are unfortunatly spam lists.

Not necessarily. Spam lists are just easier to play.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Tournament list w/o??   Tue Oct 16 2012, 08:06

Its not about easiness in play, in the most true sense of word.

You might not want spam, but you do *need* to multiply several things in your list to provide reliability.
For example you need Range AI - you go take 2-3 Venoms and Razorwing, or 2-3 Venoms and Raider with Kabalites, instead of 5-6 Venoms.

Its about abundancy - and the fact that you still need to wreck tanks, kill soldiers, even if specialised unit got shot down. Thats what spam is all about, and that is also the way how you can avoid it, duplicate function, not units.

But stay away from completely different functions in the list, as it is impotent for Dark Eldar.

The army that plays that way are Space Marines of different sorts, where each unit is durable and generalist, and only have some flavour with them.

Theoretically its also Craftworld Eldar, but it is not they way they are usually played.
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Tournament list w/o??   Tue Oct 16 2012, 09:01

Azdrubael brings up a really good point it's about redundancy/abundance. Even in "non competitive lists" you will notice this.

I run three squads of reavers as it gives me redundancy: if I lose one squad I still have more to compensate and fill in their rolls as either AT or AI.

I could probably get away with two squads, however this flows nicely onto the next point, you need units that can work together, and the unit that works best with reavers is more reavers, in terms of mobility and versatility.

You will also notice this in lists that run Taloi, this is because of the golden rule of Monstrous Creatures: the more you have longer they live, never take one always take at least two.

"Spam" also lets you saturate the board with a certain type of threat, this is the goal behind mechanised list (makes all your opponents AI useless until they crack open your transports) and infantry lists (all your opponents AT weapons are suddenly very inefficient as they are firing at infantry).

I wouldn't say spam lists are easier to play, they just make your army and overall plan a lot more robust when it comes into contact with the enemy.

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Deyfluff
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PostSubject: Re: Tournament list w/o??   Wed Oct 17 2012, 06:29

Quote :
Its about abundancy - and the fact that you still need to wreck tanks, kill soldiers, even if specialised unit got shot down. Thats what spam is all about, and that is also the way how you can avoid it, duplicate function, not units.

Okay that makes sense. By spam I was mostly referring to lists that have 9 venoms maxed out w/ blasters (personally never liked this type of list), but understanding the idea behind it helps to understand why someone might take it. In the games I've played so far I have definitely realized how much of a glass cannon DE is. Having an abundance of roles is something I need to start doing. Thank you a ton Smile


Quote :
I wouldn't say spam lists are easier to play, they just make your army and overall plan a lot more robust when it comes into contact with the enemy.

You're right. Easier was the wrong term haha.


Thanks a ton for the replies guys. From now on planning my armies will revolve around filling roles with a number of different units, not just one or even two.


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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Tournament list w/o??   Wed Oct 17 2012, 15:53

the problem with filling a large amount of roles for each unit is the price you have to pay to do that. Take for example reavers. If you pay for both heat lances and caltrops, it looks like they are good for both AT and AI right? But it comes down to that when you say... shoot a tank with the heat lances, you are wasting the points spent on the caltrops, and vica versa. That is why MSU and dedicated roles are used so much. They have 1 role and 1 role alone. You arent wasting points on a dual purpose that you arent using every turn. Because doing it over your entire army could add up to another 2 units that would fill that gap in just as well (if not better) and add more things on the field for the opponent to make a disicsion on shooting against.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Tournament list w/o??   Wed Oct 17 2012, 18:02

Quote :
the problem with filling a large amount of roles for each unit
Nobody told about large amount of roles for each unit. That would be counter-productive.

And how is venom mounted units are specialized? Trueborn are a prime exampe of duality - AT + AI.

Question was - i dont want to spam, what to do?

Answer - istead of duplicating(spamming) units, duplicate(spam) certain role with different units. I.E. instead of 5 venom take razorwing and 3 venom. Or whatever you chose.

Thats cheaper and arguably more powerfull, but can still have 48+ threat range to infantry and little extra AV.
Have downsides in less target number and no bodies inside. Etc...

Aim to have more AV, support lances with haywires. 3 Wyches venom aimed for vehicle assault next turn near Trueborns venom, guess who's gonna be shooting next turn. And thats still 6 Venoms if needed be.

Problem solved, you got competiteve army, more or less. More toolbox, less robust.

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