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 Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Wed Sep 26 2012, 16:46

The following question arose in another topic:

Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat? Here were the rule book quotes in question.

Quote :
Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges. - BRB page 64

Quote :
Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges. - BRB page 64

Quote :
A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemv models.
During its Initiative stepr it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in
the same combat. - BRB page 22

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Kinnay
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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Wed Sep 26 2012, 16:50

Good point. It's a similar problem with Drazhar's Darting Strike rule, isn't it? Can he do that in his first round of combat? I expect similar answers.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Wed Sep 26 2012, 17:35

The simple fact is that in the first round of combat, it is unlikely that both challenger and challengee will be engaged at the time that a challenge is required to be issued/accepted. In subsequent rounds it won't be an issue but on the first turn it is improbable.

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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Wed Sep 26 2012, 17:50

Judging by this lunatism any unit with initiative better then anothers cannot strike it before unit with lower initative does, because it is not engaged in close combat and therefore cannot be harmed.

All hail saviors of powerfists.

So in case of Dark Eldar most of the time you will have whole unit that is

a) When charged havent engaged any of the enemy model before initiative counting
b) WHen initative counting begin you will have whole unit that is engaged with enemy, but enemy is *not* engaged in close combat with you. What will you do i wonder? I propose smoke a bit, get your Helix SYringe, cause soon you will need to run )

You also must check if model locked in combat is engaged at each iniative step and as our mastermind decided challenges happens before initative steps so good news everyone. You cant challenge at all. Never.


Or.

There is a *slight* error around in the judging of wordings.
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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Wed Sep 26 2012, 18:33

So,here is the missing quote to fully understand :

Quote :
ISSUING A CHALTENGE
Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, before
any blows are struck

Basically, a challenge can be issued during the first round of fight if and only if :

Both Sergent have the same initiative value, and noone within the fight has a higher one.

@Azdrubael wrote:
[...]
....
I'm waiting for you to quote the rulebook where it says that a unit must be engaged in close combat to be stroke by another unit.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Wed Sep 26 2012, 18:41

I am waiting where you will quote where you dont have to check engaged status imagined by you every initative step thus making any challenges impossible.

Or is this imaginary status somehow saves from last round? You should probably write balance sheet of all engaged/unengaged models. Pity it is not described in rulebook. I wonder why.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Wed Sep 26 2012, 19:48

@Azdrubael wrote:
I am waiting where you will quote where you dont have to check engaged status imagined by you every initative step thus making any challenges impossible.

Or is this imaginary status somehow saves from last round? You should probably write balance sheet of all engaged/unengaged models. Pity it is not described in rulebook. I wonder why.

You should probably be a little less insulting. Especially as the rules have already been quoted to say that you can neither issue nor accept a challenge when not engaged.

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Wed Sep 26 2012, 19:52

I think I just assumed that since a model engageditself in CC and didn't move until its next initiative step ( if there is one ), this model was still engaged.

But that could be definitely be in the FAQ to me.
Actually, I think that I will ask the "GW about rules contact" about the whole point.
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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Wed Sep 26 2012, 20:24

With the quoted rules, I think Count has the correct answer. Here are the scenarios for 2 squads with one sergeant each:

1. The attacking sergeant and the defending sergeant are engaged immediately after the charge move, either from being in base-to-base or within 2" of a friendly in base-to-base. Challenges can be issued and accepted, first by the attacking player.
2. The attacking sergeant is engaged, but the defending sergeant is in the back. Challenge can be issued by the attacking player but not accepted by the defending player.
3. The defending sergeant is engaged but the attacking sergeant is in the back. Challenge can be issued by the defending player but not accepted by the attacking player.

Now, what if both squads had an Independent character attached? Let's say the attacker charges in and gets both of his characters engaged, but only the defender's Independent character is engaged. The attacker could issue a challenge, and the defender is left either accepting with his valuable IC or refusing and walking to the back, because the defending sergeant can't jump in to take the challenge for his boss because he isn't engaged.

The moral of the story is that if you're playing an army that likes challenges (Huskblade Archons, throwaway Hekatrixes/Syrens, Chaos) boomark the pertinent rules page, as I'm sure you can create all sorts of frustrating scenarios for your opponent, and he will want to check the rules.

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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Wed Sep 26 2012, 20:25

It leads to all sort of problems though Count Adhemar & Fruz:

"Attacks made against such units are resolved using the weapon skill of the majority of the engaged enemy models" - Under mixed weapon skills BRB page 24

Example 1:

Wyches are fighting a unit with mixed weapon skill and lower initiative then them, so they resolve their attacks against the majority weapon skill of "engage enemy models", as the enemy has lower initiative no of the enemy models are engaged, what weapon skill do the wyches roll against? Can they even attack?

Example 2:

A succubus (lets assume she has +1WS from drugs to make this relevant) and some wracks charge through difficult terrain to engage some marines. The succubus is engaged first and attacks. The marines then attack, as the wracks have not reached their initiative step (I1 from charging through terrain) and it's a mixed unit the marines roll agains the majority weapon skill of the engaged models, only the succubus, so they can only hit the unit on a 5+.

Example 3:

Challenges don't work on the first turn of combat.

Basically the rules are really badly written and this leads to all sorts of problems.

@CaptainBalroga wrote:

1. The attacking sergeant and the defending sergeant are engaged immediately after the charge move, either from being in base-to-base or within 2" of a friendly in base-to-base. Challenges can be issued and accepted, first by the attacking player.

Your missing the point that Fruz & Count Adhemar are making: there is no such rule. That is the problem. If there was we would not be having this discussion, as silly as it is.Sad

Quote :

At the start of each Initiative step, you must work out whether or not a model locked in combat is also engaged, as described below.

A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:

During its Initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemv models.
During its Initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in
the same combat. - BRB page 22

They are only considered to be engage during/after their initiative step is what Fruz and Count Adhemar are arguing (from what I understand, please correct me if I'm wrong).

Hopefully that cleared up any confusion. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Wed Sep 26 2012, 20:45

Your first example makes a point there , did not though about that, the first striker does not have any "majority" of unit to have a WS from his targets ( unless there is the same initiative value among his opponents ) =/.

For the third example, it seems kinda logical to me since if a sergent is very slow and strikes last, he may not have enough time to claim for a challenge ( nor to accept one ) before the fight starts at least for one round ).
It doesn't seem that weird, does it ?

Quote :
1. The attacking sergeant and the defending sergeant are engaged immediately after the charge move, either from being in base-to-base or within 2" of a friendly in base-to-base. Challenges can be issued and accepted, first by the attacking player.
The problem here is that you have to wait until initiative steps according to the rulebook to be able to decide if a model is engaged or not. Skipping that part would be much more simple as Mushkilla says, but that is not what's written =((.


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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Wed Sep 26 2012, 20:51

What I think happened is they tried to shorten the rules and made a mess of it. What they should have written is:

A model is engaged if:

-it is in base contact with one or more enemv models.
-it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat.

A model must fight during it's initiative step if it's engaged.

As this is what was clearly intended (going on the previous editions, common sense and avoiding the mess mentioned in my previous examples). Unfortunately they decided to combine the statements. And that is why we have a mess.

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Wed Sep 26 2012, 20:53

Yeah, that makes more sense.
Maybe we'll have an errata of it ^^.
It's till possible to avoid challenges during the first round like that, and it allows uses of higher WS eventually in some situations :p
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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Wed Sep 26 2012, 22:56

Quote :
You should probably be a little less insulting.

I probably should. If my questions was answered, rather then ignored. I didnt typed them with no thought behind them. Alas, they were not.

Discussion came to obvious conclusion.

Quote :
Maybe we'll have an errata of it ^^.

I dont think so. I can even quote a GW from one of the earlier FAQs "Stop being so bloody literal! They dont".
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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Thu Sep 27 2012, 00:04

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
You should probably be a little less insulting.

I probably should. If my questions was answered, rather then ignored. I didnt typed them with no thought behind them. Alas, they were not.

Maybe you had thought but you certainly lacked manners. Accusing people of making stuff up when they have produced rules quotes and all you've done is said "That's crap!" frankly casts you in a very poor light.

GW writes rules badly. You may not like that. You may not agree with some interpretations of it. But to pretend it doesn't happen is pretty silly.


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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Thu Sep 27 2012, 06:37

Quote :
Accusing people of making stuff up when they have produced rules quotes and all you've done is said "That's crap!" frankly casts you in a very poor light.

And what light is there when i question those interpretation of rules and all i get is same quote?
What does that supposed to mean?

I mean, untill Mushkilla said that with this same "engaged hypotesis" that it is impossible to determine WS of defender my same question was met with "please prove that you cant atack not engaged people"?

This is not crap, excuse me? Isnt the hole is not obvious here? Probably i should mention it.

Or that engaged status checks at initative check and challenges announced before all blow are struck. The assumption of saving engaged status from provious round of combat was not backed by any rules. With this interpretation challenges per RAW are not permitted at all. That is legitimate question to this theory. And is not crap. Probably rude. But no less right.

I have seen how ideas like this evolve in my gaming group by new gamers who were trying to find elephant in a light room and at last group evolved a steady response that this is not allowed. And with good intention at heart of this idea - so we can all play game that was designed and imagined, not by questionable interpretations of rules.

I dont force this point of view on anyone, but im convinced that it is right one and so i have expressed one.
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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Thu Sep 27 2012, 07:42

Hmm. That is very interesting! I glossed over the "during its Initiative step" part. Thus, the following exchange is entirely likely.

"I make a my charge distance...closest to closest is my Archon with your Sergeant"
"Do you want to challenge?"
"No..."
"My Sergeant challenges!"
"You can't"
"Why?"
"No one is engaged yet."
"You're in base-to-base with me!"
"Read 'em and weep"

I expect my local TO would laugh me out of the room. Fortunately, you can assign casualties to models that aren't engaged, last time I checked. Otherwise I1 models would be invincible.

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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Thu Sep 27 2012, 07:57

At Azdrubael and Count Adhemar, I know you both got off on the wrong foot. But can you please both keep it civil, there is no sense getting into a fight over very badly written rules.

Azdrubael (common sense) I know we are all being pedantic with these rules but there is a problem with them, and it should be brought to light so GW can fix their sloppy work. That being said I agree with you, and I think everyone here know what their intention was and how it should be played (as most of us played 5th edition). I know this can all get frustrating at times, but direct your frustration towards GW not other members. There is no need to be rude.

Count Adhemar (the letter of the law) you should know from these sort of discussions that people get upset, so I would recommend ignoring outburst from other members as they are bound to happen. this prevents rules discussion becoming flame wars.

So I would be grateful if, you could both continue participating in the topic in a civilised manner. As you both represent important sides of this rules discussion. Thank you.

Now back to the topic. Wink

@CaptainBalroga wrote:

I expect my local TO would laugh me out of the room. Fortunately, you can assign casualties to models that aren't engaged, last time I checked. Otherwise I1 models would be invincible.

Yeah, that's what I thought at first. But thankfully like you said they can still attack. It's all very silly. What worries me thought is:

In the fight sub phase it said "work your way through the initiative values of the models engaged in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest." (page 22) this got FAQed in FAQ 1.0 to “Work your way through the Initiative values of the models in the combat, starting with the highest and ending with the lowest.” as otherwise models couldn't even fight in combat!

Rather then fixing things in the simple way mentioned above. GW have decided to try and change everything else without realising how deep the rabbit hole goes. They have no idea that this "engaged at initiative step is stupid, but they seem to be sticking with it and fixing everything else.

If we could create a comprehensive list of all the things this messes up then, I can put it all in an email and send it to the FAQ team.

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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Thu Sep 27 2012, 08:22

Sorry, I'm confused. So... It's not possible to challenge in the first round?

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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Thu Sep 27 2012, 08:47

According to what is written you get the problems mentioned in my other post (example 1, example 2, example 3). So no it's not possible.

However, I doubt that was their intention and seeing the mess it leads to. I don't play it that way, and I'm sure most of the community doesn't play it that way.

This is how it should/intended to work (but not what is written):

1. The attacking sergeant and the defending sergeant are engaged immediately after the charge move, either from being in base-to-base or within 2" of a friendly in base-to-base. Challenges can be issued and accepted, first by the attacking player.
2. The attacking sergeant is engaged, but the defending sergeant is in the back. Challenge can be issued by the attacking player but not accepted by the defending player.
3. The defending sergeant is engaged but the attacking sergeant is in the back. Challenge can be issued by the defending player but not accepted by the attacking player.

Hope that helps, clear up some of the confusion. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Thu Sep 27 2012, 10:54

That's exactly how I think it should play. Just wish GW would employ a frakkin editor to make the rules say what they want them to say!

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PostSubject: Re: Can challenges be issued in the first round of combat?   Thu Sep 27 2012, 11:26

@Count Adhemar wrote:
That's exactly how I think it should play. Just wish GW would employ a frakkin editor to make the rules say what they want them to say!

Agreed, it pains me to see such poorly written work overcomplicate everything. The worst is GW never like to admit their mistakes, form the latest FAQ (to quote promethius' blog):

Quote :

Flying Monstrous Creatures have Skyfire, but only while Swooping.

I love that they put this in as an off-hand FAQ, like you were just a
little too dumb to find where you put Skyfire under FMCs. Hey,
GW, we get that you meant it to be there, but it wasn’t, and
that makes it an Errata, not a FAQ!!! This stuff probably
annoys me more than it should.

Sigh... Sad

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