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Azdrubael
Hekatrix


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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Sat Sep 15 2012, 10:41

Quote :
Just to be clear, are you voting against them getting a bit of an upgrade in the next review?

Next review? I doubt they will be touched at all for a looong time.
I dont know. They dont seem overpowered, nor underpowered.

I dont really know what can be done about them. And that something i do imagine lies in the area of our transports.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Sat Sep 15 2012, 11:33

Most of the problems we have with assaulting could easily be fixed by allowing us to assault from a WWP.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Sat Sep 15 2012, 12:12

There is a red line in the new rules that assaulting units have to suffer at least one turn prior to the assault, one way of another. With few exceptions like Ymgarls, who have their own restrictions.

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Moomastermoo
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Sat Sep 15 2012, 14:37

I massively love Wyches and have found them to be amazingly useful all the time. Granted, I've not played too many games this edition, and all of mine have been against a BA player.

I run 2 squads of 10 wyches, one with nets, other with flails, both have a Heka with an agoniser and both have haywires and both in raiders with Night/Flicker. They perform well everytime unless I do something really really stupid.

I've found they work for tarpitting termies, killing attackbike squads (Heka does wonders here), taking on tac squads/jump squads/death company. As long as they get the charge, usually after shooting and tossing a nade' then s'all good. And once you get FNP, times are golden.

Drugs can be the part that makes it really swingy, if you roll a 1 then they feel a little too expensive for what they do (unless you start multi charging tanks in which case they feel uber cheesy). But roll anything else and my wyches have performed really well.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Sat Sep 15 2012, 17:21

Azdrubael wrote:
Next review? I doubt they will be touched at all for a looong time.

Wanna bet? Smile

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Sat Sep 15 2012, 21:40

In 5th the consensus was that they were more of a tarpit unit than anything else. Now since you will always be shooting and more importantly, throwing a grenade, they are much more of the assault damage dealers that they should have been to begin with. I would love for the wyche's 4++ save apply to overwatch though.
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Nezumi
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Sat Sep 15 2012, 21:54

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
In 5th the consensus was that they were more of a tarpit unit than anything else. Now since you will always be shooting and more importantly, throwing a grenade, they are much more of the assault damage dealers that they should have been to begin with. I would love for the wyche's 4++ save apply to overwatch though.

I agree with this, overwatch basically says that you would be stupid not to shoot at someone running to attack you, well I think that you wouyld be stupid to run at someone with guns in a straight line, surely a unit as athletic as the wyches are would be ducking, weaving, rolling around trying to not get hit.
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Snatch
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Sun Sep 16 2012, 20:12

Best AT infantry in the game!

P.S- Nezumi I totally agree with you. There should be a rule for Wyches thatallows them to use their Dodge 4+ against overwatch fire... But then if there was, the price for Wyches would go up by at least 2 pts...

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Fauxmonculus
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Sun Sep 23 2012, 12:06

I need to ask an incredibly stupid question, sorry.

How do you actually get your anti-tank Wyches into CC with vehicles in the first place? I've tried two squads of ten, going flat out across the table in Raiders on turn one, but both Raiders are always blown up by my opponent's shooting, causing my Wyches to die horribly, with any survivors who aren't falling back or pinned gunned down by bolter fire in my opponent's turn.

I have considered four squads of five in Venoms, in the hope of providing more targets than he can reliably bring down in one turn of shooting, but this seems like a big points outlay on sacrificial Venoms.

I've also tried hiding at the back to try to jump on targets of opportunity, but I'm usually facing drop pods full of Wolf Guard with combi-meltas and a combi-flamer, which drop right next to the Raiders and blow them up. If I charge the Terminators with the remaining Wyches I'm shredded by overwatch, and if I don't then I'm left with a couple of squads of five(ish) Wyches milling around at the back of my lines, unable to reach their targets - assuming they don't fall back off the board from the casualties they took from the exploding Raiders.

My previous use for the Wyches was assaulting out of a WWP, or simply coming on from my table edge and eating any units that had reached my lines, neither of which is possible in 6th.

Now I am clearly a complete idiot, but can anyone give me any suggestions, since at the moment my Wyches are being used to temp (very pretty) Wracks and I'd like them to go back to being Wyches again.

Thanks!
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Inrit
Hellion


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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Sun Sep 23 2012, 12:58

I'm using Wracks Raider as a screen. You can hide 2 Venoms behind. If it's too expensive, just take 3 Wracks to get a Raider, deploy the Wracks on an objective and just use the empty raider as a screen. I had success like that, hope it will be an useful answer for you.
Also to deal with Drop Pods, I think the best way is to stay close to the board, and pay for night shields. Opponent is taking a big risk if he tries to land next to you, and he may be out of melta range. It's theorical, he will manage to drop still, but with more pressure, and you will avoid part of the threat.
Even if it forces you to start far from ennemies lines, remember the Reavers can reach them easily, and bladevanes long fangs or others who stay in the back to support the pods.
Good luck for next battle, hope this help!
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Sun Sep 23 2012, 13:56

Quote :
How do you actually get your anti-tank Wyches into CC with vehicles in the first place?

You have to present enemy with multiple targets, like rushing blasterborn , meltareavers both of which can do the job if the wyches will be blown. Hence the list building strategy, where each unit can do every job. Ours is not specialised army.

Couple that with deploying and objective placing strategies, where you must get advantage of fighting with only part of enemy untis and wolfpack his units with multiple of yours and youl get the idea how wyches can survive and do damage.

Flat-out near cover, so if enemy wreck your vehicle you can unload Wyches there.

Think of it as a wave, you cant stop all of the wave, it just keep coming no matter what.

IF you will just create 2 specialised CC unints that can mulch tanks and have some long range fire support like Ravagers your units will be blown out of the sky and long range will be caught in the of war attrition, that it will skulkingly try to win.

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Fauxmonculus
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Sun Sep 23 2012, 16:17

Thanks for the replies.

The expendable Raider tactic sounds interesting, but must take some careful positioning? In that you need to leave your Wych Venoms not a lot more than 12" from the enemy's vehicles for the following turn (move 6", disembark 6", charge), and trust that they can't maneuver around the Raider in order to put some shots into the Venoms? Is one set of these sufficient, or do you need two Raiders and four Venoms to make it work? I have used Reavers to attempt to suppress Long Fangs with some success, but there are usually flamers all over the place which mean they never make Turn 2, so it's an expensive tactic.

Regarding the multiple target approach, how many targets do you need to present at 2000 points? I've tried this with two Raiders, one Venom, and a squad of six Reavers, and the Reavers were wiped out and all the transports blown up by the start of Turn 2, so I need to present more than four. Potentially I could use four Venoms with Wych Squads, my Archon & co in another Venom, and break the six Reavers into two lots of three (assuming I still have the points for the Reavers), which would give my opponent seven targets to worry about, so on past experience three of these units might survive into Turn 2, but this sounds chancy - and assuming the Wyches then get to the Rhinos/Razorbacks and wreck them, I'm going to be short on units to deal with the contents. Could you let me know how you mitigate this?

One other question, do you find these approaches more reliable than Dark Lance shooting? I haven't had terrible luck with two DL Ravagers, two DL Raiders and a DL Razorwing (or occasionally a Heat Lance Talos) opening up the transports, and then using three Venoms with double cannons to shoot at the contents.

Thanks again.
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Azdrubael
Hekatrix


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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Sun Sep 23 2012, 17:06

Quote :
Regarding the multiple target approach, how many targets do you need to present at 2000 points?

6-8. At 2000 there is question of quality of targets, cause concentrated fire can wipe almost everything. With Hull Points introduction that means that any AV threats will be consistently wrecked, which means we have to go Fast Atack way, where lies lot of wounds and good cover saves.

.
Quote :
I've tried this with two Raiders, one Venom, and a squad of six Reavers, and the Reavers were wiped out and all the transports blown up by the start of Turn 2

No wonder. That aint threat at 2k level. And certainly Wyches were biggest threat.

2 x 9 man Reaver Squad And Beastmasters are a really nice combo to wyches. Those can survive shooting and are major threat to armor and any infantry.

Quote :
One other question, do you find these approaches more reliable than Dark Lance shooting?

In a land of mass mech where i live, Dark Lances are simply not enough. It is a new way, it seems very good so im going it.
Very reliable, provided we make contact. With new rules for Large Blasts i also cant go shooting way

List is something like this

Raider 1
Succubus + Venom Blade + Haywire Grenade , Warlord : Command
6 Wyches + Heka + Raider (dissie) + Power Lance + Haywires

Raider 2
Succubus + Venom Blade + Haywire Grenade
6 Wyches + Heka + Raider (dissie) + Power Lance + Haywires

Venom 1
5 Wyches + Haywires
Second Splinter Cannon

Venom 2
5 Wyches + Haywires
Second Splinter Cannon

Venom 3
5 Wyches + Haywires
Second Splinter Cannon

Venom 4
5 Wyches + Haywires
Second Splinter Cannon

Reavers 1
8 Reavers 3 Blasters Champion

Reavers 2
8 Reavers 3 Blasters Champion

Beastmasters
4 Beastmasters
5 Khymera
6 Razorwing Flock

Ravager 1
Dissie

Ravager 2
Dissie

Ravager 3
Dissie

1997
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Scyrex Deledras
Hellion


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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Sun Sep 23 2012, 19:45

(Raises hand) So wait, if 5-girl Wych squads in Venoms are still ideal...will squads of 7-10 in Raiders still work?

In 5th ed, my lists would almost always feature 2 decently-sized Wych squads in Raiders, with Haemonculi on hand to give them Feel No Pain. They always performed extremely well, even against opponents with decent shooting or close combat ability. In the few games I've played in 6th, though, they have either suffered horrendously to Overwatch from Tau or Necrons, struggled in close combat against Plague Marines, or suffered downright horrible consequences to Raider explosions (open-topped explosions being strength 4, by the way, are one of the few things I reeeeallly dislike about 6th ed).

Are large-ish squads still viable, or are Venom-mounted squads the way to go now?
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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Mon Sep 24 2012, 15:36

The problem there is : try to faec a Grey Knight with 3 Nemesis dreadnought or something like that ( not sure ), and 5 troops in razorback => you have 8 units shooting, and you can bet on 6 destroyed transports at least ( and It's not the whole army there unfortunately ... )

The only good solution to me is using covers and hide as much as you can.
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Mon Sep 24 2012, 16:11

I've been thinking in new ways to deliver wych squads into combat, taking into account the new disembarking and overwatch rules...

Equip your Hekatrix with PGL, and mount them in a Raider with Flickerfields, and Torment Grenade Launchers. In your turn, move at full speed your wych Raiders to the enemy, next to some piece of area terrain and close enough to charge the next turn with your wyches (they will be on foot probably), 12 inches away or so. This way, you will be shot and charged probably, but you have some tools to avoid losing your wyches in the process:

1.) You have a 4+Jink save against shots and 5++ against anything that ignores cover or CC attacks.
2.) Enemies must pass a Ld test in order to charge you, and they will have a -1 penalty.
3.) Wyches (and the Haemonculus carrying the LG) can use Overwatch against units charging your Raiders. You could pay for Splinter Racks, but its not cheap. Furthermore, Wyches won't stop chargiing units with their shots (most of the time).
4.) You SHOULD be using target saturation: I use 3 units of wyches (with Haemis), 1 of 10 Wracks, and 1 of Incubi (7-8 and Archon), and also 2 units of Trueborn in Venoms (but they remain in the second line).
5.) If you move your raiders NEXT TO a piece of area terrain, you will be able to disembark inside of it in the case your Raider gets wrecked. If it explodes, no problem: you're in the crater anyway.
BUT
6.) There's something that can hurt a lot and that's getting surrounded and wrecked by assaulting infantry. While the PGL and overwatch can help sometimes, you can use your multiple Raiders in order to avoid being surrounded: show one side of the boat to the enemy with your 3 or + Raiders, putting them in line, so close that no enemy can pass between them. In the case of a wreck, hide your wyches behind the vehicle.
7.) PGL gives you a +1 to your cover save against enemies at 8" from you, then you should use this to decide where you want to deliver your wyches.... USE TERRAIN!!
8.) Also, charging from/through cover with PGL will make your wyches last longer.

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El_Jairo
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Tue Sep 25 2012, 15:48

Hi all, I haven't been playing DE for some months since 6th came. Typically because of the problems/meta-shift the wyches has seen under 6th.
I am used to play a wyche cult in the former codex but wyches in 6th play nothing like it.

I have seen some interesting suggestions on how to make wyches work again as CC troops. But it all comes down to investing more points into the wyches and their transport to mitigate their new weaknesses.

People talk about wrecked DE transports, in my experience they blow up far more often before they get wrecked.
So I think you need a pain token in there to have some degree of survivability but FnP got nerfed pretty bad for T3. Typically you insert a Heamy for about 50 points.
To minimise casualties from overwatch, you add PGL and charge through cover. Another wyche in points and you need to leave the heamy behind because otherwise you'll lose the fleet RR (I am a fan of that!).

Furthermore add TGL on Raiders in order to prevent some charge on it. In my experience most opponent don't need to charge because it would have blown up in shooting.
I have a question on this: do they need to roll vs TGL before declaring the charge? I want to know if you always get your overwatch, even if TGL fails.

To me Wyches are now an aberration: CC troops which excel in taking down armour. They have a fantastic CC save but rarely get to use it because you can't lock tanks in CC.

Maybe I'm still too inexperienced with 6th to see the new possibilities (apart from boost on Reavers) for DE. So please enlighten me.
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Rancid blade
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Tue Sep 25 2012, 16:08

I agree that wyches have lost a lot of their luster. The biggest problem is str 4 hits from exploding vehicles. Loosing 4-5 wyches from a raider blowing up just is horrible. In my last few games I have been taking two squads of six incubi with a haemonculi in a raider and they have been working out well. If the raider crashes the incubi can survive it. Also, incubi can actually kill things that they get into combat with...
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Wed Sep 26 2012, 09:25

Don't you find the fact that incubi lack assault grenades to be a problem?

As for S4 explosions there is a work around, discussed in this thread.

Hope that helps. Smile

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Ferronyx
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar Wyches   Mon Oct 15 2012, 04:04

truth be told they are a potent staple in my force, screening them with reavers softening up enemy infantry units while the wyches sweep in to mop up!
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