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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Sun Sep 30 2012, 13:02

Tyranid Prime and the Archon, in my opinion.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Sun Sep 30 2012, 14:45

@Mushkilla - I think your issue is you're paying attention to what is the most beneficial loadout for the Archon vs. *this specific Autarch loadout* as opposed to what would then become the best loadout for the Autarch.

I could drop the blast pistol and take a Shadow field - yes.
That would make me more likely to survive the shooting round - yes.

But, then, as the Autarch, I would have to ask myself what gear loadout I wanted. The answer would include Swooping Hawk wings and two rounds of shooting with instant death on the line. Or maybe just a Lasblaster to try to pop the Field through three rounds of unopposed shooting and give me assured win on the charge. (oof, not to even mention the Jetbike)

A lot of my gear loadout considerations go back and forth as both sides try to build for the optimal situation for themselves, and the Autarch is capable of being faster than the Archon, so the Archon has to play a game where he is an equal threat via shooting in order to try to obligate the fight into h2h combat where he has a solid chance of winning.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Sun Sep 30 2012, 14:55

I'll have to say that a shadow field would have been a much better choice than a clone field as not only is the 2+ invul worth the loss of the blast pistol imo but you have to remember that the clone field only works in combat, not shooting. As it stands, although the Archon will likely get the first turn, the Autarch will probably shoot first due to the extra range from the death spinner compared to the blast pistol. Assuming the Archon hits and wounds, it's 50/50 whether or not the Autarch dies. Assuming the Autarch hits, with only his Kabalite Armour to protect him, the Archon is almost as good as dead. While the Archon has a clone field, the Autarch shouldn't have too much trouble as so long as she gets to fire her death spinner before the blast pistol kills her, the Archon will go down quick. Even with a shadow field though, I'd still go with the Autarch. It will be closer but with both being evenly matched in combat and the Autarch being superior in firepower, she should have the edge. I know I'm not really being loyal to the Dark Eldar but loyalty isn't really a noteable trait for them and I also own an Eldar army so... meh. Razz This is also one of the few chances the Eldar have for success while the dark kin have other opportunities iirc. Autarch for me.

I won't even discuss the Tyranid Prime vs. Chaos Lord fight as there's no contest there. I think this is even more one-sided than when the Space Marine Captain went up against the Ork Warboss. Laughing Tyranid Prime.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Sun Sep 30 2012, 19:37

Thor665 wrote:
The answer would include Swooping Hawk wings and two rounds of shooting with instant death on the line. Or maybe just a Lasblaster to try to pop the Field through three rounds of unopposed shooting and give me assured win on the charge. (oof, not to even mention the Jetbike)

A lot of my gear loadout considerations go back and forth as both sides try to build for the optimal situation for themselves, and the Autarch is capable of being faster than the Archon, so the Archon has to play a game where he is an equal threat via shooting in order to try to obligate the fight into h2h combat where he has a solid chance of winning.

Good points. It was something I overlooked. I find it very interesting. Its hard to say, as the range/cover system for the Olympiad is quite abstract and doesn't follow conventional 40k. Are units always in cover? Do units take difficult terrain tests?

Here are some more thoughts on it:

Autarch, bike - 100
Archon, venom blade, blaster, ghost plate, combat drugs - 100

The autarch weapons has a 12" range and the Eldar Jetbike 2d6" move in the assault phase, so will end up 14-24" away from the archon after shooting at him. The archon has a movement range of 6, and the blaster has a range of 18", he has a 4+ save and will always be able to keep the Autarch in range. The ghost plate mean he doesn't need to stick to cover. Depending on how much terrain their is and the quality of the terrain you could replace the ghost plate/drugs with a clone field. The archon clearly has the shooting advantage and in close combat he will be going first, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s and have a 4+ save, The autarch on the other hand will be going second, hitting on 4s and wounding on 4s, but has a 3+ save (they both have the same number of attacks. The archon has the upper hand in both shooting and assault.

Clearly the jetbike is not the way to go. So lets try something different.

Autarch, warp jump generator, death spinner - 100
Archon, venom blade, blaster, ghost plate, combat drugs - 100

Well the warp jump generator gives you the same advantages as the jetbike, with the drawback of being sucked into the warp on a double. However it frees up points for the lethal death spinner that also has a range of 12" (and AP-). This makes things a lot closer with the archon having a 37% of killing the autarch when he shoots and the autarch having a 71.7% chance of killing the archon when he shoots. The archon has a 72% chance of going before the autarch or at the same time as him (the autarch having only a 28% chance of going first). The autarch also has a 1/6 chance of getting sucked into the warp. The archon would want to shoot at the autarch and try and get into combat if the autarch roles badly on his 2d6 jump. In my opinion this is the most closest match up.

The thing that forces the archon to take the Blaster is the Jump Shoot Jump move granted by the bike or the jump generator. This is because it allows the autarch to put off combat until he rolls badly on his 2d6. Swooping hawk wings are not an option as they death spinner only has a range of 12" meaning that the archon would be able to charge the autarch on the next turn. As soon as the Autarch doesn't have Jump Shoot Jump the archon doesn't need to take a blaster and it would be more advantageous to take a shadowfield.

In short Blaster > Jump shoot Jump > Shadow field.

That's my more in depth analysis.

Hope that helps. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Sun Sep 30 2012, 20:17

I think you're mistaking tabletop rules with Olympiad rules there - the inches don't matter, the movement zones do.

Within the Olympiad the Blaster=Blast pistol, except that the pistol is cheaper and doesn't rob you of an attack in h2h combat.

I agree with, basically, the rest of your conclusions which is why I went with the loadout I did.

To clarify the cover and assault move thing, as discussed in the rules it works thusly;

You can take a cover save whenever you wish.
If you do, and you assault the next round, you will lose the charge bonuses unless you have a way to assault through cover without suffering that problem (e.g. assault grenades)

Make sense?

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Sun Sep 30 2012, 20:27

Thor665 wrote:
Make sense?

Awesome thanks for the clarifications, so how does a JSJ move work in the movement zone (just out of curiosity) as I find the whole system really fascinating. And Kudos for coming up with a system that actually makes the battles interesting. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Sun Sep 30 2012, 20:37

A Jump Pack, Beast movement, or any other 12" movement functionally works just like Fleet - it will allow them a one time per battle adjustment of the battlefield range.

A unit with additional movement beyond even that (specifically Tau Suits or Eldar Jetbikes) would get yet an additional move option.

Hit and Run will also be able to be used, and can reset the range to Short after a round of Assault.

Functionally this will allow certain combatants (like, say, wussy Tau) to potentially avoid melee for a number of rounds while trying to shoot their opponent to death first and brings in some rules that benefit units with speed and shooting prowess so the battles aren't just about h2h beatsticks while also forcing combat towards assault so that the units that are only assault will eventually get to swing if they can survive.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Sun Sep 30 2012, 20:41

Thanks for clearing that up.

Well with my better understanding of the Olympiad rules, I think your archon choice is perfect. If I understand this right. If he gets to go first, he can shoot his blast pistol, and then use fleet to move the battle straight into assault negating the autarchs chance to shoot. Is that correct?

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Sun Sep 30 2012, 21:01

You don't get to adjust range till after the round is over. No skipping people's attacks.

Also, the Autarch has fleet as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Sun Sep 30 2012, 22:32

I'll vote for the Tyranid Prime. He's just the better close combat fighter and is better equipped.

The second fight is a bit tougher, but I guess the Autarch is better suited for the lightweight battles and has the better equipment options to counteract the Archon.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Sun Sep 30 2012, 22:35

I'll vote for Tyranid Prime and the Archon.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Sun Sep 30 2012, 23:18

Tyranid Prime is the logical choice. The ID threat is too high for the archon though, and thats a very hard matchup, it really could go either way. But assuming the autarch uses his fleet to gain an extra round of shooting, though risky, would be in his favor. I'll put my money on the Autarch.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Mon Oct 01 2012, 02:29

The first one isn't even a fight, Tyranid Prime will stomp face. The second one will be impossible to differentiate between and will all come down to the luck of Thor's rolling so, out of racial loyalty, I'll bet Archon .

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Mon Oct 01 2012, 02:44

I'm going to say Tyranid Prime, although if only the Chaos Lord had another week to gear up, who knows? Maybe something in his new codex might have evened it out.

And our Archon has got this, but it's close. A little luck either way could decide it!
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Mon Oct 01 2012, 07:11

Thank you, Thor, for a highly entertaining read.

Tyranid Prime and Autarch it is...

Of course, I really hope that the Archon survives the shooting phase...
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Mon Oct 01 2012, 14:43

I think the majority have it pretty well sorted on the first fight, even if it weren't for racial loyalty from my pre-Eladrith Ynneas days - a sad and painful time for any significant void-traffic.. oh wait that has yet to change - I would be banking on the Tyranid Prime. I think you'll find some suitably spiky Tyrant Guard in the next spawning. ((Oh and as an attempted nod towards specificity I'm going to say that the Lord will go down to the second round to wound roll, which will be the third attack, in the first round of combat))

As for the second fight... the chance of instant death off the first volley could go either way. Slight chance of going first to the Archon, more shots from the Autarch, and once in combat the Archon's weight of attacks and superior stats do still have to weather the power maul and invulnerable save ((as an aside one wonders what an Eldar power maul would even look like, they seem too elegant for what is a traditionally brute-ish weapon)).
Either way it's going to be close, mutual instant death at range, prolonged slapping against fancy defensive measures up close. I want the clone field to do well, which is possibly swinging me to the Archon's cause - it's just a hilarious piece of kit - and yet the Autarch seems to have the more tricks up her sleeve.

Sod it, the Autarch's either going to web the Archon to death straight off the bat, or the clone fields going to have a poor roll when the Autuarch is 'on a roll' ((I'm sorry that's awful)) and the reduced initiative will allow the Autarch to finish him off.

But I want the Archon to win.... honest. *goes to prepare the surgical tools*

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Mon Oct 01 2012, 16:56

I will go with Tyranid Prime and Autarch

The prime is an easy choice, as for the second battle, it just comes down to statistics.

First off the archon should go first, but a +1 to go first (I7 vs I6) doesnt guarentee him first. Secondly the Autarch has a 95% chance to ID the Archon, while the Archon only has 36% chance of ID the Autarch. On top of that even if the Archon goes first, this gives the Autarch two turns of shooting at the Archon regardless (as they will both fleet, meaning the battle would be at short range the second turn) giving the archon only another 36% chance to ID him.

On top of that in close combat its an interesting battle as well. The Autarch would be going first, and doing a total of 2 wounds on average on the charge, and 1.666 normally, all it takes is the Archon to roll a 1 or 2 on the clone field to be stuck at I1 the next round.

That being said, the Archon does a have a beast damage potential himself. Being a massive 1.295 wounds on the charge, and 1.079 wounds afterwards.

Basically the Autarch has almost a 100% chance to ID the Archon T1, and if the battle does end up in close combat, he still has a very decent chance to win as well...

It all comes down to who goes first, but I will say if the Autarch goes first, the Archon will lose.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Mon Oct 01 2012, 18:05

Shadows Revenge wrote:
the Autarch has a 95% chance to ID the Archon
Without doing any of my own maths - this number has to be wrong. I don't think you're accounting for the cover saves is my conclusion.

Also, there will be only one round of shooting I suspect - both units have fleet, so they'll effectively cancel each other out.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Mon Oct 01 2012, 18:28

yes I did Thor, remember cover is only a 5+ unless you are fighting in ruins (and I doubt an arena has buildings in it) or you go to ground, which then next turn you cant move and only make snap shots. The math is like this: 2*.833 + (.334*.166) *.833 *.667= .952

On top of that why only one turn of shooting??? The Autarch's best chance to win is to stay away from close combat. So the Archon would fleet forward, while the Autarch would fleet backwards, staying the same and getting another turn of shooting in. That would cancel them both and they would still get another turn of shooting right??? (im still alittle fuzzy on the way two fleets would work against each other)

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Mon Oct 01 2012, 19:11

At Long range neither would shoot due to lack of range.
At Short range both can shoot.
You spend one turn at each range - and the Fleets will cancel each other so effectively do not matter.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Mon Oct 01 2012, 20:11

Here is the logical thing to happen for the second battle.

The archon will fleet in, autarch will take his overwatch, autarch will fleet out and shoot, and then overwatch again when the archon charges back in. The Autarch has no fear of ID in CC, so there's no reason for him to avoid CC, and the overwatch for him means that he'll have more opportunity to ID the archon.

Using this strategy, the archon is almost assuredly dead in the water.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Mon Oct 01 2012, 20:16

The catch being that there is no overwatch in this tournament.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Mon Oct 01 2012, 21:06

...O.o

I don't like it... I don't like it one bit!

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Mon Oct 01 2012, 22:17

I suppose I could maybe allow a unit to take Overwatch in exchange for not getting the assault bonuses - but there are exceedingly few characters that would be an optimal strategy for.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Olympiad - Lightweight Round Battles   Mon Oct 01 2012, 22:39

I think that leaving it how it is would be fine, afterall, it is how it has been played so far and nobody has suffered bad results due to the lack of overwatch.

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