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Enfernux
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PostSubject: just thinking, need input   Mon Jul 30 2012, 09:57

so as i am reading, watching and learning more and more, i think we will be seeing an increase in footdar armies, and i still have a payload of eldar models not made yet. Do you think we will se this list more often or will we see a totally different list, and if so, why would those lists differ from this?

In forward, Avatar provides fearless bubble for stormguard, farseer is bup fron with either the wraithguard or one of the stormguards, wraithlords and avatar will provide phalanx, rangers will snipe on objectives intentionally placed in the open, wraithguard are wraithguard Smile

Avatar 155
farseer with fortune, doom, stones, rowi, rowa 155
10 guardian defenders with eml and a warlock with enbolden 130
10 guardian defenders with eml and a warlock with enbolden 130
10 pathfinders 240
10 wraithguard with spiritseer with conceal 396
11 stormguard with two flamers and a lock with distructor 135
11 stormguard with two flamers and a lock with distructor 135
3 support weapon platforms with vibro cannons 150
wraithlord with wraithsword and shuri cannon 110
wraithlord with wraithsword and shuri cannon 110

1843 in total.

the reason i use eml with the guardian defenders, support weapon platform eldar dex pg 39 quote: "A heavy weapon mounted on a weapon platform counts as an assault weapon in all respects."

i will be looking on the net for more footdar options and strategies and tacs to better help my list and to devise tactics against them.


EDIT: thinking of this makes me want to start wh40k soulstorm campaign again with eldar Very Happy

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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: just thinking, need input   Mon Jul 30 2012, 13:30

my experience with footdar was very very painful. bikes with flamers, jump troops with flamers, drop podders with flamers, drop pod dreadnoughts with heavy flamers... you get the idea.
everything tends to die a horrible death. to anything that ignores cover.
5+ saves are not good enough for a primarily foot force.
if you are going to go footdar, ditch the guardans, bulk up on jbikes and wraithguard ad then support with infiltrating/outflanking scorps or shining spears, or if you dont want to pay out/wait for new plastics, at least upgrade your troopers to avengers with shimmer shield/power weapon and defend. the 4+ is golden, as is at least some kind of combat ability.
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PostSubject: Re: just thinking, need input   Mon Jul 30 2012, 13:42

csjarrat, please, gjb are noot footdar, they are saim hann. I have a saim hann army, i didnt need advice on how to make them saim hann Very Happy
scorps cant assault when they arrive from reserves, they are a sitting in cover counter assault unite.
dire avengers arent the unite i want to keep sitting in the back, they are a midfield unite.
if i change the stormguardians to dire avengers, they are going to be much smaller in unite size, and the avengers aint an assault bsed unite, they are harassment, mid field disruptors, unless the opponent has worse saves than 4, and then you would use blade storm, but the enemy will probably keep the oposition in cover against them.

ok, you mushed a unite of guardians after deep strikeing next to them on an objective, then remember the wraithguard are there to Smile
do not underestimate the eldar trickery Very Happy

anyway thanks, but i want to keep this list on foot.


on the flip side, what would you use/think you will mostly see from foot'dars? I'll say this again, FOOT'dar!

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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: just thinking, need input   Mon Jul 30 2012, 13:58

lol, footdar seems to be an odd one. i deem anything not meched up to be 'foot', hence the suggestions of bikes.
mobile troops are never a bad thing, and footsloggers are pretty slow, hence you'll need at least something fast and scoring. being T4 and 3+ with 4+ cover is pretty decent too, as is the S6 shooting and JsJ ability.
i know about scorps, i play with wwps and am very aware of that, hence infiltrate! if you think storm guardians are any better of an assualt unit than avengers, i'd kindly ask you to re-read their rules. worse weapon skill, worse armour, worse initiative, worse leadership. no access to power weapons, invul saves or other combat buffs.
all they can do is flame, and then die to the retalition. without transports, its highly unlikely they'll get near anything to flame it in the first place.
note: i am not saying avengers are mint in combat, just that they are the best option for forward troops in a foot list.
guardian defenders are meh. they achieve little apart from sitting on objectives unless they get very lucky with whtever weapon they are bought. i find mine just get flamed and die by deepstrikers though. this applies to rangers/pathifinders except in a unit of 10 with doom support their damage output is much more significant before they get flamed/mortared/barraged.

not trying to be a d*ck, but think about what people on here say when people post all-foot lists or wwp only lists. all the problems with wyches and warriors apply here to guardians too, plus guardians are even worse than wyches or warriors, while priced similarly.
get the avengers, having a save against peoples basic weaponry is pretty massive. even then, you'll struggle. there are plenty of heavy bolters and big shootas out there too.

armies need to balance toughness and mobility to work. if you're tough but not mobile, you'll do ok. can keep hold of 'your' objectives and stand your ground.
if you are mobile, you usually trade off toughness for speed. you can pick your fights, and use speed to achieve your objectives and avoid heavy casualties.
if you are weak and immobile, you will be out maneuvered and have no resilience to counter it.

in this light, a footdar list needs to have high toughness and retain as much mobility as possible. that leaves:
wraithguard, wratihlords
3+ save units (bikes, scorps, spiders, reapers)
4+ save units (avengers, banshees and hawks)

elements of mobility can be brought in to offset infantry slowness:
jbikes of both flavours
warp spiders
swooping hawks
scorpions (infiltrating/outflanking)
harlies

you've only got one mobile *and* tough troops choice, bikes.
next best bet is avengers (full squads with combat equipped exarch)
followed by wraithguard (x10 with spiritseer)

chuck in a smattering of faster options, AT platforms and psychic support and you've got your list.
it aint easy though mate, there are hard counters to a lot of this and eldar arent exactly costed up right for this edition.
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PostSubject: Re: just thinking, need input   Mon Jul 30 2012, 14:35

and while you are shooting at my guardians, the wraithlords get closer with the avatar, and killing the wraithlords...its not easy. And since i move them with the avatar, they are fearless so i wont need to roll for running. A foot'dar is massively different then what ppl here are used to playing.
For example, 10 pathfinder: to hit rolls of 5+ are ap1, sniper, to hit rolls of 6 can nominate the target, wounds on 4+, 36" range, 2+ cover.
Backfield vibro cannon is going to do a lot of damage, as will eml.
Wraithlords are very good, if you can keed pthem alive.
Avatar, only t6, is very powerfull indeed, and gives a fearless bubble, and if a target is doomed, it wont live long.

its just not the army i would use with DE, for i like mine hitting the enemy like a wall of fire: fast, hard, leaving only ashes behind.
With eldar, it is very different, for they have similar assault-strong unites, but their delivery system isnt like ours. And with phalanx placement, its hard to assault the SG...its hard to tell in one post, i would advise youtube: WayoftheSaimHann and EldarCorsair channels.

You do have a very solid point, for using avengers instead of guardians, eldar arent a solid list if you want to play spacemarine style. This isnt a hammer army, rather a finesse army...as are DE, but with DE, i have a very solid assault list, thanks to the delivery system Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: just thinking, need input   Mon Jul 30 2012, 15:57

dont overestimate your wraithlords, they were a bit shoddy in the previous edition but they've now become even weaker. certainly my units of DE warriors are not scared of wraithlords, poisoned shooting rips them a new one, and i'm hardly short of lances either. drop pod sternguard will cut them a new one too. even a squad of marines can take one out in cc thanks to using krak grenades in CC now. they can also be challnged to prevent them doing much damage to the units they charge.

i know how much damage pathfinders and rangers do, theyre two of my favourite eldar units. once your opponent knows they can headshot his termies on T1, where do you think his drop pod dready with heavy flamer is going? killing on 2's, ignoring cover much? bye bye snipers.
i know, i've had it happen to me, A LOT.

as for vibro, as i read it a vibro battery only inflicts one glance. extra models just increase the strength and odds of hitting, not the number of glances. you'd need a full complement of vibro batteries to be viable in anti tank, which would stop you having those wraithlords. you'd be better off with one d-cannon battery imo. unless they FAQ the "always suffers a single glancing hit" part, then you'd be better off using those slots on other things.

avatar is good, perfect for these kind of lists, especially with fortune support.

"thanks to the delivery system" as i see it, your delivery system is walking? theres no 'finesse' to walking?
you deploy like any other army and then walk forwards into a hail of fire, or sit back in a fortification and trade shots with an advancing enemy, hoping they dont just sit on more objectives and laugh at your 5 long range weapons plus snipers.
(i mean, aside from within 12" range, how exactly do you expect to deal with av14?. it'd take the vibro's 4 turns of hitting it to wreck it, by which time it'd be far too late as you'll have a face full of assault termies. the EML's are glancing on 6's and only hitting on 4's so get some lances on the 'lords!)

you're not going to out-shoot anyone without moving forwards, and if you move forwards you'll get shot and cut to bits. try it by all means, write bat reps, but i really think you need to beef up your list with higher T and AS units.

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PostSubject: Re: just thinking, need input   Mon Jul 30 2012, 16:51

@csjarrat wrote:
even a squad of marines can take one out in cc thanks to using krak grenades in CC now. they can also be challnged to prevent them doing much damage to the units they charge.

and me charging, auto s10 a10 attack on impact, then i chalange your sergeant and kill him out right with the wraithlord, since its a monstrous creature with t8, krak grenades wont do much to it, and then for 110 pts, i already tied your sternguard down for 1 round, even 2 or 3.

@csjarrat wrote:
i know how much damage pathfinders and rangers do, theyre two of my favourite eldar units. once your opponent knows they can headshot his termies on T1, where do you think his drop pod dready with heavy flamer is going? killing on 2's, ignoring cover much? bye bye snipers.
i know, i've had it happen to me, A LOT.

that means i can position my pathfinders far away from my main army, and he spends 250+ points to take out a may or may not kill squad, that first needs a 5 for ap1, 6 for ap1 and alocate, and then has a 50% chance to wound.

@csjarrat wrote:
as for vibro, as i read it a vibro battery only inflicts one glance. extra models just increase the strength and odds of hitting, not the number of glances. you'd need a full complement of vibro batteries to be viable in anti tank, which would stop you having those wraithlords. you'd be better off with one d-cannon battery imo. unless they FAQ the "always suffers a single glancing hit" part, then you'd be better off using those slots on other things.

well, turn1, glancing on the land raider, turn 2 glancing on the landraider, turn3 a possible 2 glances from the wraithlord - 1 impact, 1-2 with wraithsword

avatar is good, perfect for these kind of lists, especially with fortune support.

@csjarrat wrote:
"thanks to the delivery system" as i see it, your delivery system is walking? theres no 'finesse' to walking?
you deploy like any other army and then walk forwards into a hail of fire, or sit back in a fortification and trade shots with an advancing enemy, hoping they dont just sit on more objectives and laugh at your 5 long range weapons plus snipers.
(i mean, aside from within 12" range, how exactly do you expect to deal with av14?. it'd take the vibro's 4 turns of hitting it to wreck it, by which time it'd be far too late as you'll have a face full of assault termies. the EML's are glancing on 6's and only hitting on 4's so get some lances on the 'lords!)

you're not going to out-shoot anyone without moving forwards, and if you move forwards you'll get shot and cut to bits. try it by all means, write bat reps, but i really think you need to beef up your list with higher T and AS units.


so who doesnt see finess? its easier to hide 10 models in a ruin that dont roll for dangerous terain, than say a wave serpent, that can be taken down by 3 say haywire blaster shots...you shoot at the guardians...well they are about the same points as a normally kited WS, but you then arent shooting at something else, and i will get CS. Etcetera blahblah, nough said, yada-yada...we can go talking on this topic all day Very Happy
placement, traps, fire lanes, lures, eldar trickery


all in all, you make good points, but you miss one of the primal questions: what would you use, for foot?
i know the eldars weaknesses...most of it is them being 4th ed: DE get darklance for 20, eldar for 30+ for example.

so please, if you have an alternative list, you would use, post it, and if you'd like, off topic i will post both my mech' and my jet'dar Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: just thinking, need input   Mon Jul 30 2012, 17:11

[quote="Enfernux"]
@csjarrat wrote:

all in all, you make good points, but you miss one of the primal questions: what would you use, for foot?
i know the eldars weaknesses...most of it is them being 4th ed: DE get darklance for 20, eldar for 30+ for example.
jet'dar Very Happy
my main point was that i tried it a lot, and ditched it. its like trying to make a hard as nails assault army out of necrons, or a horde army out of GK. its not how that army really works.

as i said, if i was going to do it now (i wouldnt) i would get as much 3+ save on the board as possible.

i'd go with:
farseer, fortune + doom or guide
x2 10man wraithguard units with conceal lock
a couple of avenger units
jbikes
scorpions infiltrating
warp spiders/hawks

war walkers x3 with eml/lances (if taking guide)
war walkers x3 with scat las (can out flank for rear/side armour or give AA cover)
maybe Wraithlord with lances?

that gives AT, AI, assault, fast/mobile elements, mobile troops and enough resilience to take some shots. plenty of armies would give it head aches though as you just cant get enough high quality, high strength shots down to hurt tanks. aircraft can be a problem unless you fill the air with scatter lasers from walkers (guided), you dont have much mobility and can be tank shocked/herded away from objectives

you do have as solid a line as you can get though if you advance behind your wraithwall. that said, deep strikers, outflankers and jumpers can still get to the squishy bits and other than S6, you dont project that much power at range.
you'd rely on your scorps, spiders, bikes and walkers to get in behind enemy units and cause mayhem while the guard move up.

this playstyle will probably get a boost with the new book. wwp are in according to the rumour mill. should give some more speed and mobility to eldar troops, especially wraithguard
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PostSubject: Re: just thinking, need input   Tue Jul 31 2012, 14:17

anyways, this depends on meta very much, i only have 1 squad to fear from tau, one leeman russ to fear from ig, the other opponents are sometimes space wolfs, eldar.
On the flip side, i've come to the thought of: eldrad, avatar, troop-guard, 1-3 guardians, 1*5or10 rangers or pathfinders, 2 wraithlords and a warwalker squadron, thats usually 1500-1750

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PostSubject: Re: just thinking, need input   Tue Jul 31 2012, 14:31

@Enfernux wrote:
anyways, this depends on meta very much, i only have 1 squad to fear from tau, one leeman russ to fear from ig, the other opponents are sometimes space wolfs, eldar.

serious, only one issue with guard? you lucky bugger :-)
the humble mortar squad never taken at all? tis a cracking little unit for taking out pathfinders. as are vets in a valkyrie with flamers or det packs.
the amount of arty they can bring is scary too, glad you've got a nice opponent :-)

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PostSubject: Re: just thinking, need input   Tue Jul 31 2012, 14:38

nah, he uses heavy weapons, melta vets and such Very Happy

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