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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Fri Jul 27 2012, 12:45

This is a behind the scenes article on the truth about running a lot of reavers. See it all looks great when it's in a battle report, but hidden behind pretty pictures lies the monster that is random allocation.

You use random allocation (BRB - page 15) with attacks like vector strike and bladvanes.

You randomize (BRB - page 5) by splitting the models into groups of 6 allocating the models in each group a number and the rolling a d6 to determine the group and a d6 to determine the model, if a group is smaller then 6 you just re-roll until you get the assigned number.

That seems simple enough. What's the big deal? How bad could it be?

Example 1: 9 reavers fly over a unit of 10 guardsmen, and inflict 11 unsaved wounds, everything is just gravy remove the unit!

Easy

Example 2: 9 reavers fly over a unit of 10 guardsmen, and inflict 9 unsaved wounds, split the group into two groups one of 6 and one of 3. Then roll a d6 to determine the group and another d6 to determine the model. Up to 18 individual rolls (that must be rolled one at a time!).

Ok a bit annoying.

Example 3: 9 reavers fly over a unit of 10 guarsmen joined by a space marine librarian inflicting 15 wounds before saves, Split the squad into two groups one of 5 and one of 6, number each model, roll a dice on a 4+ it affects group A otherwise it affects group B. So you roll a d6 to determine which group, another d6 to determine which model, your opponent then rolls a d6 for his save, until the model dies. This process can involve up to 45 (60 if the unit has FNP) individual rolls (that you have to roll one at a time!). This doesn't even include re-rolls of 6s for the 5 man group.

Really?

Example 4: Three units of 10 reavers fly over a mob of 10 ork nobs with pain boy and boss in mega armour (mixed saves, FNP). That's up to 360 individual rolls (that you have to roll one at a time!) assuming you inflicted 90 wounds. If it takes you 2 seconds to roll a single dice and check it's result, this process would take you 12 minutes!

Wait there's a tactic in this, you could just get first blood and stall the game indefinitely! Genius.

Once your opponent realises the madness that is random allocation, he will gladly compromise by just removing the models closest to the reavers (either before or after they move).

Thoughts?

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Last edited by Mushkilla on Fri Jul 27 2012, 13:10; edited 7 times in total
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Fri Jul 27 2012, 12:52

My opponent and i agreed that the randomization was stupid, so we took models from closest to farthest from the direction the bikes flew over them.

If i flew from north to south, models were removed the same way.

In a tournament... I guess it depends on your opponent, or the TO.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Fri Jul 27 2012, 13:09

well, if the TO says to roll them off, i will ask him/her, to please stay and watch over my opponent, i have to take a leak, and after the first time this is done, TO will gladly say nah just remove them as closest to farthest Very Happy Twisted Evil

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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Sat Jul 28 2012, 14:30

Interesting news!

The new chaos daemon codex update gives screamers of tzeetch loads of cool stuff, one of them is effectively identical to bladevane.

"They also gained a new rule, which is similar to Vector Strike. When they turbo boost over a unit they inflict D3 S4 ap- hits on a unit per screamer, using the final position of the screamer for wound allocation, vehicles are hit on the side."

This is good news as the bold part tells us how we should resolve bladevane attacks!

What's more interesting is if our bladevanes get FAQed similarly they may be able to affect vehicles, Now I'm not getting my hops up, however if this ends up being the case, cluster caltrops will become insanely good (they already increase a 9 man reaver squads damage output by about 50% against T3 and T4). 3d6 S6 hits against vehicles side armour is not even going to be funny when it comes to taking light transports, maybe even flyers?!?! (Fingers crossed).

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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Sat Jul 28 2012, 15:43

We'll never get it against vehicles. It specifically says so in the codex. They wont change it because of how good it'll be against vehicles. The Chaos units get d3 S4 hits, which is basically the same as a boltgun.
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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Sat Jul 28 2012, 15:51

@IASGATG wrote:
We'll never get it against vehicles. It specifically says so in the codex. They wont change it because of how good it'll be against vehicles. The Chaos units get d3 S4 hits, which is basically the same as a boltgun.

I did say I wasn't getting my hopes up! Razz

There are still two great things to take from this, it's identical to how bladevanes work (D3 S4 AP- when turboboosting, except it works against vehicle). This means that bladevanes will most likely get a similar FAQ (which may or may not include being able to hit vehicles). What's really important is:

1)The attacks are no longer allocated randomly! (so no dice nightmare)

2)You use the final position of the bikes to determine how to allocate them. This is interesting because it means models hidden at the back of a unit are not safe, which is a great tactical advantage.


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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Wed Aug 01 2012, 23:26

@Mushkilla wrote:
2)You use the final position of the bikes to determine how to allocate them. This is interesting because it means models hidden at the back of a unit are not safe, which is a great tactical advantage.

It's also a good idea from an "ease of play" standpoint, because there's no need for debate over where the unit was at the beginning of the turbo-boost move. Just go from where the reavers are when the wounds are resolved, as with shooting.

It also keeps with the DE army's effect of forcing the opponent to position their models more carefully than "valuable guys towards the back."

I do not expect the inability to bladevane a vehicle to change, as there's a big difference between the S4 hits of screamers and 1-3d6 S6 hits from reavers with cluster caltrops.
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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Thu Aug 02 2012, 07:51

@Allandrel wrote:

I do not expect the inability to bladevane a vehicle to change, as there's a big difference between the S4 hits of screamers and 1-3d6 S6 hits from reavers with cluster caltrops.

Like I said, I'm not getting my hopes up, It would be good, I don't know about game breaking, hitting units on the side armour means it's effective against light vehicles and transports. It's not like caltrops are cheap either, you do pay through the nose for them. As much as it would be awesome to fly over a tank and drop a whole bunch of grave mines on it.

I have the rules for screamers, it doesn't mention anything about flyers. However I would assume they can be hit by a "slash attack".

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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Sat Sep 08 2012, 08:32

Well the new Dark Eldar FAQ is out, and our worst fears are confirmed. GW wants us to do it randomly (which makes me think that the guy writing the FAQ has never actually tried playing reavers. >_<

Im sure it wont be a problem in casual games since people will just let you use the screamers slash attack as rules precedent, but in tournaments..... ouch.
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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Sat Sep 08 2012, 09:02

@grandlordzero wrote:
Well the new Dark Eldar FAQ is out, and our worst fears are confirmed. GW wants us to do it randomly (which makes me think that the guy writing the FAQ has never actually tried playing reavers. >_<

Im sure it wont be a problem in casual games since people will just let you use the screamers slash attack as rules precedent, but in tournaments..... ouch.

I guess in tournaments it gives you a time stall advantage. But seriously it's a real pain. I need to find a way to contact GW and make them realise their madness. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Sat Sep 08 2012, 09:20


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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Sat Sep 08 2012, 10:02

@Enfernux wrote:
-.- for the love of khaine, google-.-
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/customerservice/contactUs.jsp

Been down that rout you call them and apparently it does nothing (see FAQ V1.1). They won't accept emails concerning rules.

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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Sat Sep 08 2012, 12:27

in conclusion: you can contact them, just with not something concerning their products...40kRB is ther product after all, with all the rules in it as well ^^

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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Sat Sep 08 2012, 13:59

@Enfernux wrote:
-.- for the love of khaine, google-.-
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/customerservice/contactUs.jsp

From that link:
Please note: Rules questions and gaming related problems can only be answered via email. Please contact us and we will respond within 3 business days.

The page doesn't list the email Razz

I remember in the late 90's when there was a Rules Boys(or something silly like that) line that you could call. As an experiment we called them twice in an hour with the same question: Two completely different answers Razz I suppose you'd need to contact a game designer rather than a customer service flunky to get an "official" answer. lol!

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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Sat Sep 08 2012, 19:03

As soon as I saw that FAQ, I thought "ohh... Mushkilla will not be happy..." Your wince of anguish has been heard throughout the warp.

That being said, how about starting a write-in campaign? Heheh
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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Sat Sep 08 2012, 20:24

@Mushkilla wrote:

You randomize (BRB - page 5) by splitting the models into groups of 6 allocating the models in each group a number and the rolling a d6 to determine the group and a d6 to determine the model, if a group is smaller then 6 you just re-roll until you get the assigned number.

In fairness, I think this here is the really crazy bit and even in a tournament I'd expect an opponent would let you ignore that where there's an easier way to randomize - such as rolling a d10 or d12 if you have one.
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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Sat Sep 08 2012, 20:53

[EDIT: Ninja'd by Ben_S!]

I recommend a partial solution to this issue the same as gamers have solved their issues since 1974...throw d20s at the problem!

By rolling a d10 or a d20 to allocate, you skip the step where you have to split them into groups and roll between them. It should help prevent having to renumber them every time, as you can just roll a number and count off from the front of the squad. Once a guy bites it, everyone else just moves up once in line.

I'm sure there's a good way to speedroll this. I'll experiment or consult a comp sci minded friend to make a logic chart. By the way, do affected units get cover saves from bladevane attacks?

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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Mon Sep 10 2012, 09:33

@Roc wrote:
As soon as I saw that FAQ, I thought "ohh... Mushkilla will not be happy..." Your wince of anguish has been heard throughout the warp.

Thanks, and you bet I'm writing to them!

@CaptainBalroga wrote:

I'm sure there's a good way to speedroll this. I'll experiment or consult a comp sci minded friend to make a logic chart. By the way, do affected units get cover saves from bladevane attacks?

There are a few ways mentioned in this thread:

Warseer Randomising Reaver thread

The problem is when you get mixed save units and you have to roll saves individually (now any unit with a character is considered mixed saves!). There are many tricks, unfortunatly a lot break the rules (bubble sort for example so in the end seeing as you need your opponents consent you might as well convince him to use the chaos daemon rules).

The hardest part I have found is when you have 30 ork boys and you start removing models how do you remember which one has which number?

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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Mon Sep 10 2012, 09:43

How about rolling a scatter dice and the hits are considered to come from whatever direction the arrow points? Still essentially uses the chaos daemons rules but is also suitably random.

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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Mon Sep 10 2012, 09:51

@Count Adhemar wrote:
How about rolling a scatter dice and the hits are considered to come from whatever direction the arrow points? Still essentially uses the chaos daemons rules but is also suitably random.

That's quite cool. The thing is it doesn't follow the BRB rules for randomizing. In my experience even after the FAQ my opponents seem ok with me using the CD rules (as they have experienced the perpetual dice vortex first hand!). I'm sure a word and a demonstration with a tournament organiser and he would agree too, so I'm not too worried, it's just rather silly on GWs part. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Mon Sep 10 2012, 10:06

The CD rules make it easy to snipe out heavy/special weapons, because all you have to do is make sure you end your move close to them. Randomised hits stops you from doing this, so I can see that someone might object to using the CD rules in a tournament. I agree though that randomising all those hits will be a huge pain.
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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Mon Sep 10 2012, 10:28

@Ben_S wrote:
The CD rules make it easy to snipe out heavy/special weapons, because all you have to do is make sure you end your move close to them. Randomised hits stops you from doing this, so I can see that someone might object to using the CD rules in a tournament. I agree though that randomising all those hits will be a huge pain.

But on other hand side they know where the damage will come from, so can take measures to defend against it accordingly. randomisation they could just get unlucky. So far anyone aginst it at my club has realised the madness of their ways, all be it the hard way. Smile

At the end of the day, if they would rather me remove models from the front, that is fine too. I just don't want to spend most of my game randomising.

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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Tue Sep 11 2012, 03:14

First, I believe you need to create groups as equally as possible. So 15 models is not two groups of 6 and a group of 3, but three groups of 5. 14 models would have groups of 5-5-4, and 13 models would have groups of 5-4-4.

Second, I don't see the part of the rule that says you need to roll each wound one at a time, which makes sense since the method does not rely on which model is closest. If I'm right about this (and I may not be), it means you simply roll like this

15 wounds on 10 models, two groups of 5:
1. Roll 15d6, group A = 1-3, group B = 4-6.
2. Roll any group A wounds on to models, re-rolling 6s.
3. Same for group B.
4. Opponent rolls all saves in one go.

This can result in some models suffering multiple unsaved wounds while others survive, but that's what randomness is all about. Shouldn't take very long, though.

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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Tue Sep 11 2012, 08:24

That's quite similar to the bubble sort method i mentioned in the FAQ thread.

But as Mushkilla said here, you'll need your opponent to agree, that's true.

But I still rather not simply take them from the back as with Screamers, 'cause my opponents will learn to not put the special stuff at the back. I want a chance at killing those special dudes in the unit. Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: The Reaver Randomization Rollercoaster    Tue Sep 11 2012, 10:07

@Krovin-Rezh wrote:

This can result in some models suffering multiple unsaved wounds while others survive, but that's what randomness is all about. Shouldn't take very long, though.

Is that the intent of the rules though? Note that normal wound allocation never involves overkill - all wounds effectively hit the front model until he fails his save, then they transfer to the next in line, etc.

If you randomise all wounds at once, then you may indeed get two on one model, who fails both saves. But if you instead randomise the first wound, then take save, randomise the second wound, then take save, etc you will never put a wound on a model that's already dead. This is still random.

(Afraid I don't know exactly what the rules say about randomising wounds - my copy of Dark Vengeance is in the mail...)
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