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blackoutcs
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PostSubject: What do we do now?   Sat Jul 21 2012, 20:27

Obviously 6th has brought a lot of changes to our army. After playing a couple games I have realized that wyches have taken a huge hit due to FNP lowering and snapfire. I am aware of their potent use with haywires, but other than that is there a use for them? Do we get a 4++ vs snapfire?

For the past few weeks I have just been staring at my models unable to figure out what to paint because I have no idea what is actually good anymore. Does anyone have any advice on the topics of whats a good central list idea or what units have really started to shine?
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Mushkilla
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Sat Jul 21 2012, 21:12

@blackoutcs wrote:
Obviously 6th has brought a lot of changes to our army. After playing a couple games I have realized that wyches have taken a huge hit due to FNP lowering and snapfire. I am aware of their potent use with haywires, but other than that is there a use for them? Do we get a 4++ vs snapfire?

You don't get a 4++ against overwatch as dodge specifically says it works "against wounds caused by close combat attacks." overwatch are shooting attacks.

Wyches have gained a few things, they can shoot before assaulting now (handy considering they have plasma grenades). FNP although reduced to 5+ it now works against power weapons, which is a nice bonus. Not to mention haywire grenades are serious business.

@blackoutcs wrote:

For the past few weeks I have just been staring at my models unable to figure out what to paint because I have no idea what is actually good anymore. Does anyone have any advice on the topics of whats a good central list idea or what units have really started to shine?

Things have not changed that much, raiders, venoms and ravagers are still great, warriors got a bit better with the rapid fire changes and splinter racks. Beasts are really fast now. Haywire grenades and blaster are pretty strong. Reavers got a huge boost (probably gained the most this edition) . All in all the dex is in a similar state to last edition, if not a bit stronger (night fight, hull points, flyers etc).

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blackoutcs
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Sat Jul 21 2012, 21:33

thats comforting. I have a tournament coming up next week and was going to run a "Deff World" (a nob biker list with the 3 catachan character) because i had no idea how to play DE since the new edition, but i think ill just remain with my DE and add a few more warriors and take out some wyches.

Probably look something like

The Duke
incubi
bunch of warriors in raiders
a wych squad
2x ravagers
jetfighter
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Sun Jul 22 2012, 08:50

@Mushkilla wrote:
Wyches have gained a few things, they can shoot before assaulting now (handy considering they have plasma grenades). FNP although reduced to 5+ it now works against power weapons, which is a nice bonus.

Sorry, but that's just silly. The vast majority of things that used to take away our FNP still do: power fists, relic blades, monstruous creatures, assault cannons, plasma guns, multilasers, etc., anything with S6 or higher. Changing it from a 4+ to a 5+ was a case of 'give a bit, take a bit away' for anyone with T4 or higher, but for Wyches it was simply taking away. I'm still hoping someone at GW casts a glance on the dark eldar wych and gives them a bit of a boost in the faq's!

I love them and I still use them, but let's not fool ourselves. Shooting before assaulting is nothing they couldn't do before. Plasma grenades are fun (and haywire grenades, you can throw them too!), but a single S4 Ap4 blast isn't making any space marines lose any sleep.

I hope that doesn't sound too negative and doom-and-gloomy. I think Wyches can do okay, but there's a difference between looking for ways to solve a problem and simply pretending that there's no problem at all. Smile
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blackoutcs
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Sun Jul 22 2012, 17:50

ive seen the harlequin death star on line with fortune and archons, but i dont want to go that route if at all possible
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Sun Jul 22 2012, 20:48

There's also the old "Death Star" of 3x War Walkers and Guide, which hasn't changed meaningfully from 3rd Edition. We called it the Mix Master back then, and you generally use Scatter Lasers although Starcannons could possibly be a better choice against MEQ.
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Firdeth
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Mon Jul 23 2012, 09:24

@teh603 wrote:
There's also the old "Death Star" of 3x War Walkers and Guide, which hasn't changed meaningfully from 3rd Edition. We called it the Mix Master back then, and you generally use Scatter Lasers although Starcannons could possibly be a better choice against MEQ.

I have been on the receiving end of that unit a few times *shudders* the amount of shots is just plain crazy.

@ blackoutcs; sounds like a good list except for the Incubi. I just feel they were not really worth it in 5th and now less so in 6th. Too expensive and I'd rather spend the points on another shooty unit. Meta has definitely shifted towards more shooty armies and with the new vehicle rules I hardly see mechanized armies around here which is great as I can get to the massed poisoned shooting in the first turn!

I take a lot less lances then I used to and use Scourges and small groups of Wyches(5 in a Venom)for pesky transports. My wyches have gone from cc tarpits to tank-hunters as that is all they are really good at.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Mon Jul 23 2012, 16:34

incubi not worth it? You said it yourself: game is shifting to shooting armies. And what better to deal with shooting squads, than a cc squad?
their attacks ignore all but TEQ saves, they have MEQ saves with moded MEQ strength, they have fleet, high I and with an archon, grenades.
10 marines? Average 8 die! - only counting 8 incubi with 3 attacks each, for i give them a klaivex/archon and a haem each.
Charging a nid swarm? For mature language reasons, i'll post the pic:

incu not worth it? Lets count overwatch from marines with a l.cannon and a plasma gun+a sergeant with a pistol 12"
0.8333 dead incu, not counting fnp and enemy models being reduced due to p.grenades and i counted ALL the shooting
8 dead vs 0.83 dead...ill take it Razz

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Archon
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Mon Jul 23 2012, 17:05

How does Feel no Pain change to 5+? I believe it states in the rule that if a number is not specified it remains at 4+.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Mon Jul 23 2012, 17:31

mmm...it changes in 6th ed RB?

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Mon Jul 23 2012, 17:57

@Archon wrote:
I believe it states in the rule that if a number is not specified it remains at 4+.

I think you got that backwards, the book says it is blanket 5+ unless you have a special rule that says differently. Nothing in the DE codex specifies anything differently so everyone should be 5+ FnP.

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blackoutcs
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Mon Jul 23 2012, 18:26

fnp is a 5+. does anyone run a 20man blob with the duke and a haemonculus? thats a unit i thought would start to blossom out due to being removed
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Mon Jul 23 2012, 23:27

@blackout: pls repeat that in a plain style, for i understood nothing after the "?"

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blackoutcs
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Tue Jul 24 2012, 22:20

I will break it down as simply as I can.

Has anyone started occupying a troop slot of their force organization chart with 20 Dark Eldar warriors? These warrior have a blaster and a splinter cannon and are also accompanied by The Duke who takes up an HQ slot of the force organization chart.

This unit seems like it would blossom because the duke makes all their weapons better. The Baron would also go nicely with them as you could get stealth and perhaps a defence.
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Tue Jul 24 2012, 22:40

I have been thinking of the Kabalite Deathblob as a bodyguard for an allied Farseer/Eldrad. Since Eldrad can't enter our vehicles (and even if he could, couldn't cast most of the powers from inside it), he needs a foot unit to bodyguard it. A unit of Grotesques or Wraithguard could make a useful bodyguard due to their high toughness, but the Warriors can put up an impressive amount of shooting and if you roll the power that lets you overwatch with your own bs enemies will think twice about assaulting them as well. You could even get the Skyshield Landing pad and make them un-assaultable according to RAW.

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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Tue Jul 24 2012, 22:51

To me, this unit is horrible. Too expensive for what it does. 20 warriors, with two blaster and the duke they are around 380pts. A bit of mathhammer, and this unit at long range kill 4.7 meq. Not very impressive.

For almost the same amount of pts I can get 3 warrior squads in venoms, and those will by mathhammer kill 6.9 meq. The three venom squads kill more enemies, are faster, and increase the number of targets the enemy have to deal with, and that’s a good thing in my book.

One could argue that the large warrior blob will inflict some series pain if it is within rapid fier range. But then the blobb will be rapid fired by bolters. And/or charged and killed in cc.
What about overwath? Well, if at full strength the warrior blob will kil 2 meq according to mathhammer.

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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Tue Jul 24 2012, 22:57

I like using Warriors in swuads of twenty, although I was put off using them with Sliscus because of the price.
While I agree with Talos, especially with their effectiveness against MEQ, I have found them to be great against 'Nids, Orks and Guard.

They are also nice for holding objectives against horde armies, as they can easily be put off by the sight of the numbers you are using.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Wed Jul 25 2012, 08:53

380 pts for a not so effective unite U MADZ?!
with that, i can afford 8 incubi, 1 klaivex, 1 haem, 1 raider(368), and with less effort, i can kill more...9.77 just from the incu, not counting the haems liqui and the raiders disint.
ok, ill make this a little more complicated. Incu spam out of the raider, raider moves a little to get the side of the tac squad - 1flamer, 1 plasma, sgrt pf and p.pistol - with disint and liqui, then the incu charge, overwatch and assault.
hammeraider takes out 3.33 marines, assuming you rolled 3 or better for liqui ap, lets count 3. you managed to take out the plasma guy and 2 random guys Yay!
Tacs overwatch, killing 0.68 incu. Lets count 1. 6 Marines and 1 sq ld remains, but we charged!
Incu hit first, 8.77 marines dead. Ow, there were only 7 left? Boo-hoo Twisted Evil

and you can clearly see i only rolled above average once with my liquifire, while i counted most results better for the marines.

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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Wed Jul 25 2012, 23:05

^ true, but it's hardly a fair comparison. After all you're comparing a close combat unit in the elites section with a troops unit designed for shooting. They're meant for completely different purposes. I personally wouldn't put a blaster in a unit of 20 warriors (@Talos, you can only take one blaster regardless of the unit size), you're wasting the blaster shot shooting at infantry and the splinter shots if you shoot at tanks. I'd go splinter cannons and maybe a shredder if you really want to take a special weapon, save the blasters for the smaller units.

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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Wed Jul 25 2012, 23:56

there is no way on this earth that that incubi raider would live past turn 2 at the strength u mathhammered them in at. that unit literally has a red bullseye with another bullseye inside the first bullseye painted on it. the warrior unit does not
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Thu Jul 26 2012, 00:03

Indeed, you might as well paint them with red star trek security jumpers on them...

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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Thu Jul 26 2012, 00:14

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
Talos, you can only take one blaster regardless of the unit size.


Confused them with the old warrior squads on foot in the old codex, they cult have two.

But way run warriors on foot in the fisrt palce? We have both the most awzome locking and the most kick ass transports in the game. Raiders are the heart and soul of our army, way not use them?
I run my warriors in squads of five with a special weapon and a sybarite with a venomblade, in raider and venoms. They provide both fire and assault support for my other units.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Thu Jul 26 2012, 09:09

@blackout: yes, thats why i have 2 unites of them Wink 4 wyches and 2 gunboats...pick what you want to shoot Very Happy the rest will massacre the remains of the opponent.
Note: multi assault with incubi in order to keep them i cc isnt a bad thing.
Note: smaller squads of incubi do less kills, helping them stay in cc untill the end of the opponents assault phase.
Note: if all your shooting is in CC, i think the red laser marks on the incubi will fade Smile - sidenote: me luvz wichis multi azzultz
@TBE: ok, i will compare them to a nother shooting squad...say 2*10 fire warriors, squad leaders, HW multi trackers, marker lights, 2-2 drones - both markers. Opponent, same as before Tac squad.
Tau shooting: first of, markers shoot, lets say we are 15" away and we didnt move. 6 marker shots, all at bs 3, 3 hit, so thats 3 markers on the target. All go for added BS, that would be +3, but it can only go up to bs 5, so one calls for a remove cover - maybe you will shoot in with commander squad with plasma rifles who knows? Very Happy
So the rest of the 2 squads, thats 20 FW, 40 shots - yep, RapFire is for half distance, tau shoot to 30" Very Happy - so 40*bs5s5ap5 - meh - gives us 7.407 kills

Lets assume we moved with tau - TF?! - MArkers on BS1, 1 hit out of 6. So now we can still shoot at half distance with no penalties, giving us bs4 - wupy - 40 angry pulse shots giving us 5.93 kills.

a 20 man warrior blob with 2 cannons only kills 5.33 marines, when they didnt move and the enemy is within 12"! Lower than the FW when they moved.
Putting in a sliscus: 8.53 from 12"! Still not moving
After move, cannons fire 4 full bs or 6 snap shots...i would go for 4 Smile
making it 4.88, added sliscus 6.52

FW not moved 15(!)" 7.407
KW not moved 12(!)" 5.33
Sliscus not moved 12" 8.53 - way over in pts though Razz
FW moved 5.93
KW moved 4.88
Sliscus moved 6.52

FW or KW vs incubi, incu win XD dont answer to this me justs mein azz.

vs say a wraithlord, KW rock with that amount of hurt...then again, tau have broadsides Smile

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Fri Jul 27 2012, 07:11

@blackoutcs

I like your idea, because it makes the most of the Duke's benefits. It's a mistake to call it 380 points as you don't bring the Duke just for that, you bring him for the Serpent's Venom, Contraband, and Low-Orbit raids, right? 9 Kabalites with a blaster in a raider is about 180 points. For 240 you get the whole 20 with a Dark Lance and a Splinter Cannon.

Contraband benefits Wyches, Reavers, and Hellions, so you would bring those. Low-Orbit benefits Raiders and Venoms, so plenty of those as well. And Venom benefits one unit of warriors, so why not make that unit as big as possible?

I have two reservations about it. The first is a problem I always have with the Duke: he really wants to be in close combat, but he has to set up with the shooty unit. Of course he doesn't have to stay there, but it's a bit of a pain.

The other is that I'm scared of being more or less stuck in one place, even if it's just one unit. You'd have to choose where you deploy them very carefully.

Actually a third: it takes me ages to paint up more warriors.

Anyway, I'll work on it and let you know!
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blackoutcs
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PostSubject: Re: What do we do now?   Sat Jul 28 2012, 01:44

so i used my DE for the first time in 6th ed and i think they pretty much play the same. i was wary of overwatch on wyches so i attached an archon to my wych squads so his SF would take any snapfire wounds. I also have made the transition to venomblades on my archon and hekatrixs ( hekatrii? hekatrixies?hekatralia?)

i was sorely disappointed in my warriors on foot. although they were only 10 strong they would of died just as quickyly if there were 20 i feel. a group of pink horrors deep struck in and obliterated them. im consigning to stay with the time tested raider as a model for my dark eldar force as i have for so many years
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