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Lord Clazaryn
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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Sun Jul 22 2012, 11:09

Ok, yes that makes much more sense. I see your point now. However personally, I like to take the best of both worlds with a power axe and agoniser. That way vs those pesky 2+ characters I won't die and i can still enjoy munching on tactical squads. Very Happy

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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Mon Jul 23 2012, 13:44

@SiLKY wrote:
Currently I'm running a Agoniser/SF/Drugs/PGL archon but I'm thinking of switching the agoniser to a power axe.
Just wondering what you guys are running.
this, though drop the drugs, add ghost plate, add the power axe and put in a wwp instead.
has worked pretty well so far, can tank a lot of incoming hurt and take out HQ's without too much drama.

succubus runs with just an aggy, though have been tempted to try out some flails on her
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Tue Jul 24 2012, 01:57

Quote :
It used to give you a chance to stun or immobilise a dreadnought before assaulting it, so that you could place haywires on 4s instead of 6s (or maybe even destroy it with the shot). The way grenades are used now makes that kind of unnecessary.

You hit Dreads on WS now.

BS6 and BS7 is rare, that's why I always buy a powerful ranged weapon for it. BP for the Succubus, Blaster for the Archon. It's the same reason why you don't want to waste the I7 by giving them something like an Axe.

Sorry for the late response :>
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Tue Jul 24 2012, 04:37

HEROBEAR wrote:
Quote :
It used to give you a chance to stun or immobilise a dreadnought before assaulting it, so that you could place haywires on 4s instead of 6s (or maybe even destroy it with the shot). The way grenades are used now makes that kind of unnecessary.

You hit Dreads on WS now.

BS6 and BS7 is rare, that's why I always buy a powerful ranged weapon for it. BP for the Succubus, Blaster for the Archon. It's the same reason why you don't want to waste the I7 by giving them something like an Axe.

That's exactly what I said!
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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Tue Jul 24 2012, 15:55

yeah i get that you dont want to waste the high I, but they're pretty much the only character that can take a power axe and also get the 2++ to tank incoming wounds. if you desperately need a CC option to deal with 2+ saves, then archon is your best best for the axe as a succy will be pulped before she swings
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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Tue Jul 24 2012, 18:45

@csjarrat: if those 2+ saves are termies, there are two options.
option a) they are hammernators, capable of sustaining your full shooting - for shooting armies - for 2-3 turns. Advice: pop their transport and then leave them to footslug - ~9" movement per turn compared to what 30"?! Yes please.
aption b) they are shootinators, so they have a 5 up invul save, but have a great threat range. Advice: use disintegrators.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Tue Jul 24 2012, 22:38

if you really must deal with them in close combat, take a klaivex with demi-klaives, it's AP2 without being unwieldy.

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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Tue Jul 24 2012, 23:04

I will say, i switched out all my agos for vblades and think it was a fantastic move (yes, i know im replying to a bit older post...), even in 5th, where agos still ignored armor. Freed up a ton of points, and I didn't notice a signifcant drop in effectiveness.

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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Wed Jul 25 2012, 13:16

Well I haven't made any changes to my Archon set up yet and not sure I will tbh....... I simply never sent them off to kill termies, nor ICs tbh..... just bully troops and other infantry squads (that back in the day were the only scoring units)... that and shot up vechiles.............

Archon
Shadow Field (or clone field with GP)
Drugs
Haywire nades
Blaster
Djinn Blade (only option that gives you your +1 attack for multiple CC weapons if you take a blaster, plus the other buffs).
CC weapon (looked a bit cooler than keeping the pistol).

The only real addition I might consider is to add a power axe for close encounters................. gives you a few options if you do run in to a 2+ save, and has the chance for an even higher strength with FC and the drugs..... at the cost.... not a bad idea, but tbh, my archons is a bully, she doesn't go after such tough targets usually.

I still haven't tried a succi ye tho, but do fancy trying one out.....

Am considering something like:

Succubus
Power maul/mace
Power axe
Haywire nades

Reletively cheap HQ that can handle pretty much anything. Plasma or haywire nades for shooting, then st5 for general troop bashing, but can handle termies too (but she will almost certainly die to power fists Sad.........

Not 100% sold on this idea yet.... maybe change 1 power weapon to an ago..... maybe a VB, I think there are merits to all the options really depending on how you plan to use her.......
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csjarrat
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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Wed Jul 25 2012, 16:29

honestly, you'd be taking the power maul to increase your strength right? so, you'd be using it against fairly big beasties right? who have a 3+ or better save? a maul is ap4, so dont bother. go with the venom blade. its cheaper and always wounds on a 2+.
power axe means she will strike last, and with only a 4++ to keep her alive, she's going down. power axe is for the archon only really with a shadowfield for the 2++.
i'd keep your succy cheap tbh, just venom blade or agoniser and use her to munch through rank and file troops while your hekatrix bravely dies in her place :-)
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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Wed Jul 25 2012, 16:36

@Mushkilla wrote:

So 4 rounds of attacks compared to 3 rounds of attack (the axe gaining the advantage as the fight draws on).

Does that make more sense?

Im sorry I have to disagree with this. While you are right that the power axe lowering the Archon to I1 hurts him, you are counting two rounds of combat against 1. Which isnt fair at all. Your numbers should of been like this.

Power Axe
Venom Blade
against SM Captain in Terminator Armor (WS5, T4, 2+/4++)

T1- Archon charges
6*.667*.5*.5=1 wound
6*.667*.833*.166=.553 wound

T2
5*.667*.5*.5=.833 wounds
5*.667*.833*.166=.461 wounds

So after 2 rounds of combat, the Power Axe comes out with 1.833 wounds, while the venom blade comes out with only 1.014

Also considering that while you most likely get to hit first with the venom blade, doing less than 1 wound a combat phase against a multi-wound IC might as well be useless. And most ICs run weapons that go at I1 anyway (Powerfists, Thunderhammers) I really doesnt matter that much.

Also having a 2++ makes you way more surivivable than anything any army can pull off. So one vs one, an Archon should beat any DYI IC out there.

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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Wed Jul 25 2012, 17:45

The important part you are missing is RISK.

For arguments sake say the character your Archon is fitting inflicts one instant death wound on average per round. Your Archon has a shadowfield, so he only has a 1/6 chance of dying. To hit twice with a venom blade your Archon only needs to make one save as he strikes first, therefore having a 1/6 chance of dying. However with an axe your Archon would have to make two saves in order to attack twice and therefore have a 1/3 chance of dying.

So in terms of RISK in this example:

A venom blade gets 11 attacks for a 1/6 chance of dying.
An axe gets 6 attacks for a 1/6 chance of dying.

Like I said this falls off the longer the combat.

A venom blade gets 16 attacks for a 1/3 chance of dying.
An axe gets 11 attacks for a 1/3chance of dying.

@Shadows Revenge wrote:

Also considering that while you most likely get to hit first with the venom blade, doing less than 1 wound a combat phase against a multi-wound IC might as well be useless.
The results are binary he suffers a wound or he doesn't. Those saves he passes still count in terms of weight of dice, you are still forcing him to roll a large number of saves.

@Shadows Revenge wrote:

And most ICs run weapons that go at I1 anyway (Powerfists, Thunderhammers) I really doesnt matter that much.
You still have to make the saves when you strike at the same time for your Archon to live.

@Shadows Revenge wrote:

Also having a 2++ makes you way more surivivable than anything any army can pull off. So one vs one, an Archon should beat any DYI IC out there.

The Archon however effectively only has one wound as he is T3 (insta-killed by most things) and the Shadowfield only works until it fails. Not to mention a lot of things that have powerfirst/thunderhammers are walking around with 3+ or 4+ invulnerable saves. They are also now striking at the same time as him.

The axe is just too situational. The only place I see it worth some merit is against 2+ saves outside of challenges and against character with no invulnerable saves.

Again this is my opinion. People should run whatever they feel like running, I was merely explaining why I choose the venom blade over the axe.

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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Wed Jul 25 2012, 22:22

I used the venomblade and agonizer combo for a while. But after a couple of games I realized that I used the venomblade far more often than the agonizer, so I left it behind. Nowadays my little archon still causes carnage. A venomblade and a shodowfield puts him at only 95pts Very Happy

I don´t miss the agonizer, if I don´t fight meq, the venomblade rocks, and if I fight meq, my archon going to get challenged by wolfgurds and champions of the emperor, there the venomblade reigns supreme. Sure I don´t have the ap they have, but they have to roll a lot of wounds.
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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Wed Jul 25 2012, 23:57

To me, a power axe just ain't fluffy, DE have high initiatives so that they can strike first, and the idea of striking at I1 is abhorrent. So venom blade/power weapon/agoniser/hydra gauntlets etc, just stick away from the slow stuff. Death by a thousand cuts guys, death by a thousand cuts.

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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Sat Jul 28 2012, 09:41

I find the combo of Shadowfield, Blaster, and Agoniser Archon the best looking at the codex. At least since I plan on dragging down enemy elites with shooting (all my gaming friends are xenos don't need to worry about Terminators) I expect my Archon to butcher a lot of run-of-the-mill units such as Everything-in-Necrons-Codex as well as my Monstrous Creature/Warriors Tyranids list friend.

Basically after a long time of playing Marines and hoping my Hammernators would spawn in finally I got tired of waiting till around Turn 3 or later to get a 200 point unit that will die in combat before it attacks after being charged (admittedly some personal bad decisions at certain points but still).

Only problem with the setup on my Archon is when I modeled him... I took the agoniser out of the Scourges box and made a Blaster out of the Dark Lance in the Warriors box and totally forgot I actually need to fit him in a carrying case at some point hahaha... Looks epic though.

I guess ultimately my thought on the Archon is he isn't the 200-ish point Marine HQ who shreds everything in his path over time, but for that price I can easily get an Archon and a Warrior squad that would annihilate said 200 point HQ in a shooting phase for half the cost.

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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Sat Jul 28 2012, 09:56

My latest experiment has been:

Succubus, haywire, venom blade and a power spear - 90pts

So far it has been a lot of fun.

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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Mon Jul 30 2012, 17:00

that actually sounds interesting to say the least. has your 4++ been bothering you??? or have you just been using her to bully troops around?

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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Mon Jul 30 2012, 17:13

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
that actually sounds interesting to say the least. has your 4++ been bothering you??? or have you just been using her to bully troops around?

The 4+ has not been a problem so far. I avoid combats where ID is involved and I don't think she can win in a round. For example an Ork warboss with a cybork body is scary but you have a reasonable chance of killing it with a venom blade before he can strike. The spear is mainly for killing SM sargents, and having a bit more punch against against MEQ in general. Which for her price is exactly what I want here to do.

The fun starts when you get +1S on the drug roll, or furious charge a S5 spear is pretty nasty. I feel she gives you reasonable options without paying through the nose. I prefer a venom blade/power spear over an agoniser as in my opinion it gives you more flexibility for the same cost. With our fast transport and fleet I find I always get the charge. Good synergy with all the drugs rolls too: +1 S as mentioned is great for the spear and gives the venom blade re-rolls to wound against T4 (which the agoniser doesn't benefit from).

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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Sat Aug 04 2012, 13:14

In fifth I used to run a fluffy Archon (he enjoys his opponents die slowly):

Archon, Electro-corrosive Whip, Soul Trap, SF, CD

Sadly with the new AP3 for the Whip, is seems like he is never going to be able to trap many souls as: most IC's will have 2+ and MC's are nigh-impossible to wound on S3.

So writing this I thought of simply adding a Venom Blade to the equation.

But honestly this combination only really shown vs BA/SW with their 1 wound IC priests or if your rolled 4 on drugs.

Too bad I can't see a good way to take advantage of the ST. But in general it seems like combining a Venom Blade with another PW, to be the way to go. It's only the cost of a Agoniser but has that more flexibility.

Thank you for this very useful thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Sat Aug 04 2012, 13:49

Wow i knew some folks weren't keen on clone fields, but thought I might see some on this thread.

My archon - who usually only gets wheeled out for 1750 + games has the following:

Archon, djinn blade, combat drugs, clone field, ghostplate, soul trap - 130.

I usually send her in amongst some MEQ. Loved going after BA sang priests, gibbin them and doubling my strength. Now I know she can instagib herself, but that fits with the DE power corrupts theme I reckon! Not used her in 6th, but I reckon she's even better as long as you stay away from combat monster characters. She can challenge SM sarges all day and not get hit with the clone field.

My succubus, who is my regular HQ used to run around with just an agoniser in 5th ed and terrorise whole units of SW and BA regularly, but now I prefer a venom blade for just a 70 pts model that really makes your opponent take a lot of saves


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PostSubject: Re: Your Archon's/Succubus' Loadout   Fri Sep 14 2012, 00:37

For my archon: I usually just run ghostplate/Clonefield or just a shadowfield armed with a venomblade,djin blade, and rarely a huskblade because I personally love them ^.^
Succubus: I've ben trying alot of what Muskilla's ben doing, haywire and venom, and sometimes a power spear
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