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 How do we best use Scourges?

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: How do we best use Scourges?   Mon Jul 16 2012, 17:11

I played against blood angels last night and deep struck 10 Scourges with 4 haywires, they came in on turn three and since the blood angels player wasn't running any vehicles to begin with they were pretty lack luster.
But it got me thinking what is the best way to use scourges in 6th edition?

Does any one have some success they can share?

I've thought about running 5 with 2 dark lances and starting them in heavy cover, or doubling that (10 with 4 lances) still starting in heavy cover but adding the baron for some stealth action.

I think Bikers are better for heat-lances, but is heat lances the best way to go? Or basters? 5 with 2 or 10 with 4?

It seems like having a champion with a venom blade may have gotten better to with the hammer of wrath ability (and that they have plasma grenades where bikers don't), so perhaps running blasters or heat lances and staying close to the action then assault? Or back to the long range and hide in cover?

I know most people will run bikers over scourges but are there good reasons to take scourges over bikers (or at least over a second unit of bikers)?

And for those of use who have decided to take scourges how do we get some good uses out of them?
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Mon Jul 16 2012, 18:15

unit of 5 w/ two haywires. The problem with unit of 10 is they are just so expensive, and can only fire at one unit. 2 units of 5 on the other hand can be in two places at once, and there really isnt a reduction of firepower.

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Mon Jul 16 2012, 18:35

I think the better way is to play with 5 scourges and 1 talos with HWB and chainflails. Same price than 10 scourges but infinitely better because after popping the transport you have something really scary to charge them or to defend your scourges from being obliterated.

The only downside, you will have 1 less ravagers.
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foeofnight
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Mon Jul 16 2012, 18:52

Definitely agree that when using scourges that units of 5 work best.

-Preferred weapon choice for me is the haywire blaster. One of the only units that has access to this gun and haywire in this edition is great for taking out the armor of the enemies. If they enemy doesn't sport armor then this weapon is a bit of a let down, making this unit not much use.

-Blasters would be my second choice. They allow the scourges to keep their speed and maneuverability
Still good against tanks and can kill TEQ/MEQ quite nicely.

-I would personally stay away from dark lances on the scourges. Mainly because they really lose the ability to move and shoot effectively. In most cases a unit of true born with a raider give you more lances if you want to sit in the backfield and shoot.


So if your meta is changing to not field so many tanks, this unit may be a good one to look at replacing. For me they are specialized tank killers... If your enemy has no tanks then they become highly redundant and wasted points in my opinion.
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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Mon Jul 16 2012, 18:53

I've run several different setups. In my experience, Scourges work the best in anti infantry role, sitting on the table from turn one and showering whatever falls out from metal boxes to death. A unit of five with two splinter cannons works really well. I've tried running them with two haywire blasters, but the results were less impressive. In 5th, they could reliably keep a vehicle from shooting, true, but that was really it. Now they might be better in that area.

As for units of ten, they will definitely decimate any one squad they shoot at if kitted out with cannons, and I believe they should fare well with four haywire blasters as well, averaging out somewhere on two glancing hits per turn. I haven't had much experience with this many, as a fully kitted out unit of 10 is quite expensive.

I personally leave Heatlances to Reavers, Scourges just aren't fast or tough enough to take such risks that the weapon requires. Dark Lances aren't my weapon of choice either, simply because Warriors or Trueborn can take them as well. They feel a bit of a waste of mobility, in my opinion.

I've also come to conclusion that deepstriking Scourges is the fastest possible way to get them killed as they are perceived as a priority threat, or maybe I've just been incredibly unlucky and/or unwise about their placement.

All in all, I personally see a place for Scourges in my army list alongside Reavers, whether anti infantry (for the inevitability of your Venoms blowing up) or currently one of the best attrition anti-tank weapon in the game.

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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Mon Jul 16 2012, 19:14

I agree with most of the above points. An AI role with SC's and the carbines works very, very well. The HB's also, I personally like them better than Blasters and HB Scourges even better than Blasterborn. More reliable at doing damage and greater range.

My dice hate dark light weaponry and refuse to cooperate.

Two squads of 5 for greater flexibility and cost for sure. And survivability - my Scourges tend to die soon-ish after they hit the tabletop (and yes Siticus, especially after they deepstrike - am never doing that again), so having two squads instead of one helps keep some alive for a little while longer. Opponents seem to be drawn to killing them off like deer in the headlights.

Having said that, I do take two squads of 10 whenever I feel like it and hang the cost.
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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Mon Jul 16 2012, 20:11

Haywire all the way, a shame the box doesn't include more than one of each special weapon. Small, 5 man squads with no upgrade character are the way to go.

Also, observe the large wings. Use them as mobile cover for vehicles.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Mon Jul 16 2012, 20:19

I don't know if I agree with 5-man squads even, sounds like free VPs to me.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Mon Jul 16 2012, 20:51

I've got 10 in my collection, intended to be used as two units of five, one with 2 haywire blasters (rolled a double six the other day, spectacular vindicator explosion, very satisfying after it flattened an entire squad of wyches that didn't consolidate far enough out of the way) and the other with two heat lances and a solarite with a power spear so they can get themselves into cc to avoid return fire (supported by something else of course!)

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Tue Jul 17 2012, 09:15

The problem with 10 man squad is that you have to fire all the weapons at the same target, and usually you don't need 4 HWB on the same tank. You soften the tank with the dark lance and strip away the HP remaining with the scourges. But you don't need 10.

Also, VP... now there is only 1 mission with kill points out 6, before it was 1 out of 3. If anything, MSU got buffed.
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Tue Jul 17 2012, 12:33

Ereshkigal wrote:
usually you don't need 4 HWB on the same tank. You soften the tank with the dark lance and strip away the HP remaining with the scourges.
Well, if you think you're gonna be facing landraiders or other 4 HP vehicles you might. Plus if you're firing DL's at it anyway you're then depriving your dark lance of the opportunity to fire at something else instead. I think the bottom line is you've got to go with what you're comfortable with. If you don't want to spend 260 points on a 10 man 4 HB unit then do what Ereshkigal suggested and use a dark lance or two and a 5-man unit with 2 HB's. The benefit of a 10-man squad is that you get more ablative models to soak up incoming fire, and if you give them shardcarbines they're also a viable AI unit if they either arrive after all the tanks are gone or vehicles aren't prevalent in your opponent's list. Their extra move distance makes up for any lack of range compared to a kabalite unit, and six guys with shardcarbines actually put out more longer range shots than a unit of kabalites could.

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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Tue Jul 17 2012, 13:10

Quote :
usually you don't need 4 HWB on the same tank. You soften the tank with the dark lance and strip away the HP remaining with the scourges.
it's not because you have 3HWB that you're gonna be sure to destroy any 3 hull points vehicle ....
2 fail for 4 dices on 3+ is everything but rare, getting 1 then is not rare either, it does happen, and I'm not even speaking about both together which happens as well.
Getting 5 scourges and betting on destroying a vehicle / turn is overestimating 5 scourges a lot.
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Tue Jul 17 2012, 17:09

HEROBEAR wrote:
I don't know if I agree with 5-man squads even, sounds like free VPs to me.

My one arguement against this is that there is only 1 kill point mission now in a set of 6 missions, not 1 out of 3.

Also having 2 squads of 5 instead of 1 squad of 10 is their moneuverability. 2 squads means they can be in two different places, suppressing vehicles on different sides of the battlefield. On top of that being T3 w/ 4+ save isnt really that durable. Being 2 squads of 5 means that the opponent needs to waste 2 squads to kill both, not 1 squad to seriously maul your 10 man worth 260pts...

Also my one comment against them being used as AI is that a venom does it way better for cheaper. I just cant see SC scourges being worth it comparetively to venoms.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Tue Jul 17 2012, 17:45

A Venom only takes one penetrating hit or two glances to go down, though.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Tue Jul 17 2012, 17:54

and one tact squad w/ melta ML rapid firing does 4.796 wounds without the blast from the missle launcher (I didnt add that in due to the randomness of the blast and it being based off of how the scourges are set up)

also 260 pts is 4 venoms exactly, which is easier to take out? 1 squad of 10 models T3 4+/6++ or 4 AV 10 open topped vehicles with a 5+ cover/5++?

also lets compare shots... oh the scourges get 34-42 shots in 18" range, and only 16-24 at 36", while the venoms get 48 at 36" range? yah... Ill stick to my venoms for AI fire thank you

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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Tue Jul 17 2012, 17:56

And add the fact that venoms can contains troops that can control objectives ...
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Tue Jul 17 2012, 22:43

Problem is you're comparing a unit optimised for anti infantry (venom) against a unit that can cover both AI and AT (scourges). My point wasn't that you should take scourges as an anti infantry unit, but that if you're taking scourges for anti tank and either they're all dead by the time the scourges arrive, or you splat everything early on then scourges can be viable anti infantry as a backup. Of course now with the new missions, once in every six they'll be a scoring unit too.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Wed Jul 18 2012, 00:13

Despite what most people think, I run 2 units of 5 with 2 heat lances and have great success. The threat range of it's 2d6 is 21" which is enormous! Plus it's a S6 ap1 weapon, with a range that I think suits scourges perfectly.

A unit of 5 with 2 heat lances costs only a little more than 5 warriors, blaster, venom w/2 SC. Completely different units, mind. One hit on average penetrating a LR with 50% chance of making it go boom is beautiful on jump troops, in my opinion. Suits my playstyle down to the ground.
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Wed Jul 18 2012, 00:28

Compared to a blaster, you don't jave insta death against most of the units in the games with a heat lance, it's a great AT unit, but you have to be at 21' so that you can move and shoot at 9", which can be risky according to the situation and your target, where blasterborn have 18" ( without movement ) range and ravager 36. So Heat lance are great against vehicles, good against other units ( blaster are better though, and still very good against vehicles, I don't know if going Heat Lances when you can go Blasters is a good choice ).
Scourges have their advantages, very mobile untis that are a threat to vehicles, but you have to put them in danger most of the time to do it imo.
Maybe they are a good unit because you can adapt yourself however you want with them though, I'll try them as proxy units to have a better opinion I think, need more experience on them to really know, I mean from everyone now that they have those quite amazing HWriffles in 6th.
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Wed Jul 18 2012, 01:45

If you're going to run Heat Lances, Reavers are probably better by all accounts: faster moving, more survivable, 2d6" jetbike move to run away, etc.

I like 5 Scourges w/ Double dark lance for fire support (though you can obviously do this cheaper with Trueborn). I routinely run 10 with 4 blasters and solarite when I run zero vehicle lists that are largely built upon two or three of those, 2 or three similar units of Trueborn (4 blasters, 2 SC, shardcarbines, and haywire grenades). At 2K, you can run 6 of these "shooting deathstars" and put out a lot of heat. They used to be my basis for WWP, but with the reserves rules changing, not as viable unfortunately.

In all honesty (and this is someone who has 30 Scourges and loves to spam them) they are not as good as Reavers or Trueborn, so they should probably be relegated to smaller pest units, suicide melta, or just shelved.

Haywire blasters aren't that great. Blasters may glance a little less against AV11/12, but offer much more one-shot power and dual purpose (MC wounds, instant death, anti-terminator fire, etc.). HWB are really over-rated, IMO, especially with glances no longer "stunning" vehicles into submission.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Wed Jul 18 2012, 12:35

^ As opposed to glancing vehicles into wreckage? I'd take a 5/6 chance of stripping a hull point and a 1/6 chance of penetrating with an assault weapon any day.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Wed Jul 18 2012, 13:23

there is at least twice more chances ( up to 4 times more chances ) to get a dice on the heavy dmgs table with an AP2 weapon, that can possibly insta-kill the vehicle, and that's worth it to choose blasters/DL imo.
if there would be more than 2 HWrifles on the scourges, then it would be very interesting because it'd become a very powerful AT with a low cost, which does not seem to be atm the case.
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Wed Jul 18 2012, 17:46

analysing the three weapon options, haywire blasters, dark lances and blasters, the threat bubble for haywire blasters and dark lances is the same, 6" less for blasters. with haywire blasters you'll remove a hull point 5 times for every nine rolls (statistically speaking, there's no accounting for dice) and only 3 times in nine rolls using a dark lance (using AV12, which is probably the most common value). Granted, the odds of getting a penetrating hit are 1 in nine for the haywire blaster and 2 in nine for the darklight, but even with a penetrating hit only 1 in three of those results in a dead vehicle (unless it's open topped, in which case it's 1 in 2). Not forgetting that the darklight options are both half as much again as a haywire blaster, I'd say that stripping hull points until a vehicle is wrecked is a more reliable and efficient method than trying to penetrate armour with a dark lance.

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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Wed Jul 18 2012, 17:58

30% chances of destroying a vehicle is something worth paying, and blaster are also useful against termis or the same kind of units, plus insta death against most IC.
Besides, a vehicle that can only use snap shot during the next turn and isn't a dreadnought almost in CC or a transport, or strucking a vehicles that now aims at like nothing with his missile launcher or destroying that missile launcher is much better than only one hull point less, it's not because you don't get a 5-6 that it does not have a great effect on it.
HWrifle are overated on this forum at least imo, as everyone seems to think that they are awesome.
At least, blasters are a threat to IC and termis, basically a threat to everything.
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PostSubject: Re: How do we best use Scourges?   Wed Jul 18 2012, 18:24

1. You should be using dissies against terminators, they are MUCH more efficient.
2. you're only going to destroy a vehicle with a blaster/dark lance twice from 27 shots, which is not a 30% chance unless my maths is way off scratch .
3. It's not one hull point less, there's a very good chance with 4 haywire blasters in a scourge unit (which is what we're talking about here) that you'll strip 3 hull points in a turn=wrecked vehicle unless you're facing a land raider etc.

The bottom line is that everyone is entitled to their opinion, yours is obviously that you don't rate HWB, mine is that they're better for taking out vehicles, I'm not saying they're awesome, but they are better for wrecking vehicles than blasters/dark lances, particularly in a unit of scourges given that blasters are more efficient elsewhere (like trueborn).

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