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foeofnight
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PostSubject: Hit and Run from Baron   Wed Jul 11 2012, 18:25

From the BRB

" A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule that is locked combat can choose to leave close combat at the end of any assault phase."

So this means if I understand correctly, any unit with the Baron gains hit and run?

If this is so baron just got better than he already was. Beasts with hit and run? Yes please!
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StaticVortex
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Wed Jul 11 2012, 18:29

Why yes, yes it would.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Wed Jul 11 2012, 18:40

Baron has been and always be one of the best buys in the book.

The inbuilt Stealth for his entire unit, +1 to go first, PGL and Shadowfield for his cost is just amazing.

I'm thinking about actually using him with a unit of Reavers.
They have Skilled Rider, gets a natural Jink save from Majority, and now have Stealth grenades. That's 4+ cover just from moving with the Baron attached.

Of course, the Baron loves being with Hellions naturally, but that doesn't stop us from coming up with other creative methods of death-dealing.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Wed Jul 11 2012, 19:33

HEROBEAR wrote:

They have Skilled Rider, gets a natural Jink save from Majority, and now have Stealth grenades. That's 4+ cover just from moving with the Baron attached..

Shouldn't that be 3+ ? 5+ from Jink, +1 for Skilled Rider, +1 for Stealth?

On the other hand, you can't Turboboost without leaving the Baron behind, and you can't use the 2D6 move in the assault phase without also leaving him behind, so you'd be robbing the Reavers of some of their abilities. I'm not sure it's such a great idea.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Wed Jul 11 2012, 19:35

@Barking Agatha wrote:
HEROBEAR wrote:

They have Skilled Rider, gets a natural Jink save from Majority, and now have Stealth grenades. That's 4+ cover just from moving with the Baron attached..

Shouldn't that be 3+ ? 5+ from Jink, +1 for Skilled Rider, +1 for Stealth?

On the other hand, you can't Turboboost without leaving the Baron behind, and you can't use the 2D6 move in the assault phase without also leaving him behind, so you'd be robbing the Reavers of some of their abilities. I'm not sure it's such a great idea.

Yup, 3+ indeed.
Pretty damn good huh?

Now if only PGL didn't give Stealth and +1 cove instead Razz

I just like the fact that the Baron can be attached to anything and gives them great benefits for such a discount. It's quite amazing how cost effective he is.
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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Wed Jul 11 2012, 20:44

@Barking Agatha wrote:
HEROBEAR wrote:

They have Skilled Rider, gets a natural Jink save from Majority, and now have Stealth grenades. That's 4+ cover just from moving with the Baron attached..

Shouldn't that be 3+ ? 5+ from Jink, +1 for Skilled Rider, +1 for Stealth?

On the other hand, you can't Turboboost without leaving the Baron behind, and you can't use the 2D6 move in the assault phase without also leaving him behind, so you'd be robbing the Reavers of some of their abilities. I'm not sure it's such a great idea.

Actually, under my understand of the rules, you can. I just requires impressive positioning, and you won't turbo-boost too far. For example, say Sathonyx is out in front by 2", the reavers tail behind him, they could turbo-boost in front of him so long as coherency is maintained.

Same goes for the assault move.

I think it makes the assault move more useful, so you could plop sathonyx down where you want the unit to end up, and swing them across him for firing lanes etc. 2" coherency should not be too hard to maintain, and you shouldn't ever plan on moving more than 6" anyway IMO. They won't have the same speed in a straight line for sure, but they'll come pretty darn close in total movement.
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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Thu Jul 12 2012, 09:37

HEROBEAR wrote:

Yup, 3+ indeed.
Pretty damn good huh?

Now if only PGL didn't give Stealth and +1 cove instead Razz

I just like the fact that the Baron can be attached to anything and gives them great benefits for such a discount. It's quite amazing how cost effective he is.

Silly of me, sorry!
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Thu Jul 12 2012, 14:41

Also, you can now stick jump infantry inside transports (tho they count as 2 models). Baron+Drazhar in a unit of Incubi? Fearless, stealth, grenades, hit and run, preferred enemy against ICs. He doesn't even cost much more than a PLG Archon (tho he lacks power weapons, but he does have s6 on charge, which is pretty good). Downside would be that you can't include a Haemonculus to give Draz his fnp invulnerable, but killing somethign with that unit shsouldn't be hard.

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Barking Agatha
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Thu Jul 12 2012, 21:56

@Barking Agatha wrote:
HEROBEAR wrote:

Yup, 3+ indeed.
Pretty damn good huh?

Now if only PGL didn't give Stealth and +1 cove instead Razz

I just like the fact that the Baron can be attached to anything and gives them great benefits for such a discount. It's quite amazing how cost effective he is.

Silly of me, sorry!

No hang on, I'm right! Stealth increases your cover save. Jink is a cover save!
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Kayto_Karite
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Thu Jul 12 2012, 21:59

Stealth has been buffed it grants +1 to your cover save and if you don't have a cover save you get 6+ Cover

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Guile22
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Thu Jul 12 2012, 22:58

Where are you guys seeing in the BRB that you can carry the Baron and/or jump troops in a transport? Only mention of it I can find is pg 78: Only infantry models can embark upon transports (this does not include jump or jet pack infantry), unless specifically noted otherwise.
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Kayto_Karite
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Thu Jul 12 2012, 23:09

Well in everyone's defense there is no such thing as jump infantry anymore. for example hellions are In, J. In is infantry, J is Jump Unit. Unless transports state that Jump Units can't enter transports it's safe to say that hellions can enter transports now. You can check what hellions are classified as in the BRB Pg. 412

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Guile22
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Thu Jul 12 2012, 23:21

@ Kayto: This is straight from the rulebook: "Only infantry models can embark upon transports (this does not include jump or jet pack infantry), unless specifically noted otherwise." Pg 78

That would seem to be crystal clear that anything that has the "J" classification cannot enter transports. Every single Jump unit in the game in the back of the BRB is classified both with "J" and "In", they always go together,it's not just hellions all Jump units also get the "In" classification but the "J" classification keeps them from entering transports.

It's important to know for sure, otherwise it will be a surprise if people come on the forum and build an army list with hellions entering transports only to find their local gaming group or tourney organizers saying they can't do it.
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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Thu Jul 12 2012, 23:26

Hellions are considered infantry and jump units so yes they can embark on to a transport but jump units have the bulky special rule. So you really only can get 5 hellions inside a Raider. Not worth it in my opinion but you can get scourge into a transport in order to get the unit across the board faster. If you want.

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Guile22
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Thu Jul 12 2012, 23:37

Good point lululu_42, if they couldn't enter transports they wouldn't be given the "Bulky" special rule. Thanks!
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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Fri Jul 13 2012, 00:11

Except some JI are specifically noted as being able to enter certain transports: Ex: Death Company can hop in a storm raven, as the storm raven SPECIFICALLY STATES "Unlike other transports, the storm raven can carry jump infantry", hence the reason it says "Only infantry models can embark upon transports (this does not include jump or jet pack infantry), UNLESS SPECIFICALLY NOTED OTHERWISE."

also

infantry = in
jump unit = j
jump infantry = in, j

Edit:

the reason that they separated jump UNIT and jump INFANTRY is because there is a third class that is covered under the jump unit set of rules and that's monstrous creatures. A hive tyrant or a demon prince with wings would be classified as:

Jump Unit = J
Monstrous Creature = MC

Since nowhere in the rulebook does it say that just being a jump unit makes a monstrous creature a flying monstrous creature (to my knowledge), and giving a monstrous creature wings just makes it a jump unit...

On a side note, why is everyone trying to read the rules all out of skew to try and do whatever they want?

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Kayto_Karite
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Fri Jul 13 2012, 00:49

Quote :
Well in everyone's defense there is no such thing as jump infantry anymore. for example hellions are In, J. In is infantry, J is Jump Unit.

I would like to retract my previous comment. I noticed that in the BRB Pg. 47, in the bold paragraph under jump units it states "Jump units therefore share two sets of rules, the jump unit rules, and those of their base type. Jump infantry would, for example, follow the rules for jump units and infantry."

So jump infantry still exist, so hellions can't be in a raider. So Ruke and Guile 22 are both right.

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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Fri Jul 13 2012, 01:19

Oh I take back my earlier post.

pg78 "Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated.

Edit: I figure i would ask here since its part of hit and run. Does Hit and run work with challenges. So can my unit of Hellions with the Baron charge initiate challenge then hit and run the f*** out? (Would bring a whole new hurt with the stunclaw upgrade)
I don't see anything saying you can't but there is nothing saying you can ether.

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foeofnight
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Fri Jul 13 2012, 03:56

I guess I am not sure what you mean?

Are you asking can you be in a challenge and use the hit and run special ability at the 5end of the combat phase?

A: I would assume yes
Reason: The challenge lasts until the end of the combat phase. And hit and run is made at that point.
Also pg 65 that a second round of challenges continues only if both sides are present and neither has decided to flee.

So it doesnt look like by issuing a challenge locks you in combat in any way
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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Fri Jul 13 2012, 06:23

Given the realization that the Baron confers hit and run to a squad he joins, all I can think of is Hit and Run Grotesques!! Not sure how useful it is, but it is so, so, so very wrong. It must happen in the next few games. pirat


Second, concerning the above mention of the stun claw, the question becomes "does this revelation make the stun claw any more or less effective?" It would subject the helliarch to a round against the IC, so I would think not....

But on the other hand, it would allow the IC to be segregated earlier in the turn, allowing your units to focus on the other squad, and then pulling away the IC to be dealt with later.

First glance I would think it makes the SC more useful against things like Farseers, but far less useful against things like Kharn...

Of course, you can always use a helliarch to ignore a challenge to try and protect him better?
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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Fri Jul 13 2012, 06:56

The only unit that we have that truly has a useful hit and run is the one where the entire squad has hit and run ie: hellions. The only reason you would want to hit and run is on the enemy turn so you can shoot and run back in (and thanks to overwatch, thats nerfed a bit now), so i see barons hit and run as a moot point unless he's in a unit of helions and MAYBE wyches...

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Fri Jul 13 2012, 07:17

It's quite sueful to get out of enemy tarpits (there are no more fearless wounds, so you can end up stuck in combat against huge blobs of scarabs or gaunts for the rest of the game).

As for the stunclaw, I think it can be quite useful. Hellions and Baron engage a unit, and then hit and run, pulling a character away. Now the unit can no longer use the character as a meatshield, and the Baron can now challenge the character and thanks to the moral support rule gets 1 reroll for every 5 Hellions (rerollable shadowfield save? Yes please!). Alternatively, just let the IC kill the Helliarch in challenege, hit and run again and shoot the IC as he is standing in the open.

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Kayto_Karite
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Fri Jul 13 2012, 17:15

I still cant see the stun claw being useful in this edition. The baron doesn't have AP3 or AP2, so you will need your helliarch to bring an Ago or P. Axe. It's also cheaper bringing a P. Axe than a Stun Claw (i may be wrong don't have dex on me.)

For Hit and Run, The tactic I can see is charging a unit, hit and run on your oppents turn deeper into his deployment area, then on your turn shoot eveything at that unit you just left behind. Then Rinse and Repeat.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Fri Jul 13 2012, 19:36

Hit and run is HUGE no matter what unit it is.

As Kayto said, it is a perfect tool to propel yourself farther into enemy lines.
heck, if you have a unit of grots with the baron tied up with a guard blob squad, hit and run deeper and get to those nice, easy victory point transports and tanks!

Hellions get to redo the impact hits on multiple charges, as well as getting +1 attack again.

Pretty much, it is a big benefit to be able to avoid enemy units the opponent WANTS you to fight, so you can get to the units YOU want to fight!

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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Hit and Run from Baron   Fri Jul 13 2012, 22:12

Power weapon and stunclaw cost the same. I don't think having a single power weapon (atleast now that they're not ap2) helps all that much. Hellions primarily kill things by sheer weight of attacks. Against a sergeant I could as well challenge with the Baron, as while he doesn't have ap3, he has more attacks, higher ws and s6 on charge, making him quite likely to score a wound, and if he doesn't he's stil protected by a 2++ save. Against terminators and characters, ap3 doesn't matter anyway. And an i1 weapon is not a good idea for a t3 5+ save model.

Although a power lance could be a pretty good buy, as it's s4 ap3 on charge. Still, I rather like the claw as it brings something unique to the table, and allow us to remove the very powerful ability of using a 2+ save character to effectively give the whole unit a 2+ save.

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