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 Issuing a Challenge

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LTKage
Hellion
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PostSubject: Issuing a Challenge   Tue Jul 03 2012, 22:24

Hi All,

So yesterday I got in my second game of 6th Edition and I got to say that it was a fun game. It was a rematch against Blood Angels at 1500. I found that the challenge mechanic was critical to shutting down potentially troublesome sergeants and independent characters.

If your opponent accepts your challenge, there is a pretty good chance that you can beat him down with an Archon, Succubus, Hekatrix, Klaivex, etc. With an agonizer, they're generally toast because of our high initiative/weapon skill. I am assuming that you are using a power weapon of some sort.

In a case when your opponent does refuse a challenge, the penalty is pretty severe. You can nominate one of his characters who could have accepted and that character cannot strike blows at all. Further, the unit cannot use his leadership for the rest of the phase.

Another important point to note is the "Moral Support" rule. When the rest of the unit is not engaged but there is a duel in progress, their leader gets 1 reroll per five unengaged models.

Naturally, issuing a challenge is a bad idea when:
(1) The enemy character has a reasonably high chance of insta-killing you.
(2) The enemy character has a higher initiative/ws than you
(3)The character has a high chance of surviving the initial strike by virtue of a high armor save or invulnerability save

Has anyone else had experience with the Challenge rules? Different takes?


Last edited by LTKage on Tue Jul 03 2012, 23:35; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Rules Corrections)
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Issuing a Challenge   Tue Jul 03 2012, 22:31

I think you are really wrong except for your point 3. I wrote a topic about that right now:
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t3404-why-assault-is-impractical-for-de

btw a single character can refuse the challenge, the only time he can't it's when he's alone without a squad.
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LTKage
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PostSubject: Re: Issuing a Challenge   Wed Jul 04 2012, 00:11

Thank you for the correction.

I read your topic and I must say my first thought was: "This article isn't about challenges. Challenges are mentioned but this is really about independent characters with 2+ armor saves." I have my opinions on your article but I'll save those for your thread.

Your article deal exclusively with a specific scenario, that is SM ICs with Terminator grade armor saves. Let me ask you: Is it never a good idea to issue a challenge?
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Issuing a Challenge   Wed Jul 04 2012, 01:13

I actually wrote a topic about this yesterday, on my blog:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2012/07/6th-ed-challenges-and-other-stuff.html

TLDR: I like challenges, a lot. They're good.
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: Issuing a Challenge   Wed Jul 04 2012, 04:13

Wow,

Ereshkigal and HEROBEAR individual analysis are diametrically opposed to each other - completely opposite view points. One says we are doomed and the other says, hell yes, bring it on.

While I enjoyed reading both I have to say since LTKage has actually played a game of 6th and has experienced challenges first hand - I am going to say I am quite excited to about duels. And he is not the only one, several other name brand DE players are touting the same thing, duels are good.

Yes, there is that occasional 2+ IC like Vulkan or one of those Necron Lords but wasn't having any problems killing them off with Urien who just pretty much waits for his opponent to fail his save while his prey swings at holographic clones.

No, I never engaged terminators to begin with and I still think I can avoid them now like I did in 5th - even if duels end up average in success, I do not think it a bad mechanism for DE. On the contrary, I think DE should be embracing the idea of duels, it suits them and I think it will be a wonderful and cruel tool to torment our opponents with.

What better way to demoralize our opponent when their leaders die before they can even swing an ax? I submit there is not.

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Issuing a Challenge   Wed Jul 04 2012, 04:46

Wow, Urien became amazing... I didn't even realize... XD

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Issuing a Challenge   Wed Jul 04 2012, 05:24

Quote :
Has anyone else had experience with the Challenge rules? Different takes?

Dont expect much good when charging Platoon. Lots of Sergeants will answer your challenges, and never that Commisar. IG players also starting to paint Priests with Eviscerators for Duels.

Just imagine them with moral support ).

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LTKage
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PostSubject: Re: Issuing a Challenge   Wed Jul 04 2012, 07:11

@Azdrubael wrote:

Dont expect much good when charging Platoon. Lots of Sergeants will answer your challenges, and never that Commisar. IG players also starting to paint Priests with Eviscerators for Duels.

Just imagine them with moral support ).

I certainly don't intend on charging an infantry platoon without messing it up first. The overwatch alone is pretty beast. But my understanding of Get'Im, Boss! is that it only applies when the squad is bogged down in a duel but there is no "enemy unit" beyond their character.

It is certainly is a cool mechanic and if regular Space Marine IC are any indicator, we've got the edge on this.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Issuing a Challenge   Wed Jul 04 2012, 08:17

Played a game, loved the challenge.
Wrote it up here:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2012/07/6th-ed-first-impressions.html

The big point is that your Archon or Succubus will never be short of people to challenge unless there's no one left. Characters cannot refuse if they're the only one left, there's nowhere to hide. This means: Your characters are safe, and will most likely kill the other IC, or at least threaten them greatly.
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LTKage
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PostSubject: Re: Issuing a Challenge   Wed Jul 04 2012, 09:50

HEROBEAR wrote:


The big point is that your Archon or Succubus will never be short of people to challenge unless there's no one left. Characters cannot refuse if they're the only one left, there's nowhere to hide. This means: Your characters are safe, and will most likely kill the other IC, or at least threaten them greatly.

Glad to hear someone else is enjoying the challenge mechanic. I initially understood the rule that way but was corrected.

Heroic Stand reads:

"A unit that consists [b]only[b/] of a single character cannot refuse a challenge. He's got nowhere to hide."

Pretty dumb, right?
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Issuing a Challenge   Wed Jul 04 2012, 10:41

I'm assuming that RAI unit that consisted of multiple models but now has a single character left coutns as a unit consisting of a single chracter.

I think challenges are generally pretty good for us, as we hit before most enemies, giving us a good chanse to kill the powerfist sergeant or whatever (or forcing him to hide and be unable to hit us). It also makes MCs a lot less vulnerable to the "hidden powerfist".

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Ben_S
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PostSubject: Re: Issuing a Challenge   Wed Jul 04 2012, 11:05

Question for list building then: does the introduction of challenges make it more worthwhile to take a Sybarite, Hekatrix, Dracon, etc? These options don't seem to be used most of the time, but if they can be used to issue/accept challenges then arguably they're now very useful for any close combat units.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Issuing a Challenge   Wed Jul 04 2012, 15:26

@Ben_S wrote:
Question for list building then: does the introduction of challenges make it more worthwhile to take a Sybarite, Hekatrix, Dracon, etc? These options don't seem to be used most of the time, but if they can be used to issue/accept challenges then arguably they're now very useful for any close combat units.

The beauty is that you can challenge with any character, including your Hekatrix with an Agonizer. It's a great way to kill off a Sergeant or retire him so he can't kill your IC.
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Issuing a Challenge   Wed Jul 04 2012, 15:36

Why ppl should accept a challenge with anything different from a sargeant or similar? I don't understand, okey if we want to play a fluff game you are probably right... maybe it's my fault that i play only against WAAC players but no one of them will accept a challenge by an huskblade archon with anything more than a sargeant (or draigo, he's eternal) making you score only 1 wound.

But yes, if the enemy squad has an hidden powerfist sargeant without any IC, challenging them is the move to make. Just not against termies.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Issuing a Challenge   Fri Jul 06 2012, 06:17

if you can kill the model easily (so agoniser hekatrix vs PF sargie) there is no reason not to challenge, as to make sure he doesnt attack. If you can not get the kill (agoinser hekatrix against Wolf Guard Termie) then there is no reason to do it, and Im supprise if he doesnt do it. stopping that character from doing damage is a huge thing if played right. Sure most people wont care (I had a WAAC player said he would never accept a challenge, and that cost him 4 attacks each assault because his non Termie WG not being able to attack)

Its a great tactic when used right, you just have to know when to use it, and when not too.

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