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 Why assault is impractical for DE

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tlronin
Wych


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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 15:09

@Shadows Revenge:
Ah I see, thnx for the answers.

@MrBrokenAzs:
Seriously, why why why no assault from a WWP.

We're the glass hammer. When we hit, we hit hard. When we get hit, we get hit hard. We have basically no units you feel comfortable to leave on the table doing nothing for a turn. Assaulting from a WWP fits the fluff, fits DE, is not OP IMHO.

Suffice to say... I don't get it.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 15:12

tlronin wrote:
@Shadows Revenge:
Ah I see, thnx for the answers.

@MrBrokenAzs:
Seriously, why why why no assault from a WWP.

We're the glass hammer. When we hit, we hit hard. When we get hit, we get hit hard. We have basically no units you feel comfortable to leave on the table doing nothing for a turn. Assaulting from a WWP fits the fluff, fits DE, is not OP IMHO.

Suffice to say... I don't get it.

With the limit of 50% of units in reserve and no units on table = auto lose, I really don't think assaulting from a WWP is too much for us to ask for.

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StaticVortex
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 15:14

Having played some games now, I can tell you that assault is certainly not dead for us...in fact, if played smart (we are DE right?) you can minimize that dreaded overwatch...particularly for Wyches.

Some things I've learned:
Take grenades!
Do not assault outside 8" (the grenades grant the unit stealth against overwatch) and with fleet, 8" is reliable
Keep three models in front of your character (even if just a fraction of an inch) in case they drop to incoming fire.
Don't shoot before charging unless you're already within 6" or you may well shoot yourself out of charge range.
Gauntlets, you need them. Greater attacks with higher initiative means you can wipe engaged models before they can attack back (wounds no longer transfer to the unit as a whole, only engaged models) = assault ends with loss and potential fail of LD test, allowing for the opportunity to take them on sweeping advance, or remain locked in combat to do it again next round.

Based on how things have played out so far, I'm building a list called: "Vect: where my Wyches at?" For shooty, I'll take one raider with racks and trueborn toting splintercannons.

Other observations:
DL not as much of a requirement, other armies vehicles wreck faster which makes them sad - we've always had paper planes, so we're used to it. So try out some Desi's Particularly against Orks and Nids.

Don't rely on Venoms for more than getting a unit where you want it to go. Flat out with sails, flat out again in shooting and hope you don't die if you miss the cover.

Mandrakes not horrible - infiltrate them into cover as close to enemy units as possible and let them soak up fire...they do it well. Also, place objective in cover and use Mandrakes to prevent your opponent from taking it for a 75 point objective denial system.

All in all, I really like the change up in 6th and look forward to playing some options that just haven't been viable...such as taking Lady Maly's and haemi with crucible against psych heavy lists such as GK's. Or playing around with the sniper rules and hexrifles.

I will be playing all day tomorrow in 1000 point games against many different armies....a game day to get 6th ed. going and shake off the rust. I've already made 6 lists for it, I may have a few more by time it gets here. I will likely post a new thread with how things went against the different armies, what worked and what didn't. I will be playing with just about everything in the codex other than beastmasters and crew, as I don't have any.
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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 15:21

@Static Vortex:
Cool bro! Looking forward to your observations.

As for not shooting before assaulting, totally figured that. So I'm glad my thinking cap still works. Cool

I only am confused with 2 statements, what did you mean with not to rely on Venoms so much? And how do Mandrakes soak op fire? Coversaves?

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StaticVortex
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 15:36

@ tlronin:
Venoms having just two hull points allows it to get wrecked faster, even with the flickerfields. I found it best to drive in as deep as possible, drop load next turn, then fall back as far as allowed in move/shooting phases....if it survives, use it as a cover fire option.

Mandrakes have stealth, which buff their coversave to a 2+. Your opponent will blast needlessly away at them while you get in position. I've seen this three times now, they have (so far) been amazing at drawing focus as if they are a key unit..they're not. They can however be very frustrating if they're standing between your opponent and an objective they need.
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 16:34

my only retort is that venoms have always died when shot got through their flickerfields, even with a glancing hit. I see no difference this edition than I do last edition with venoms. Infact I see it as a boon because we can take a glance and still shoot from the venom (hopefully killing whatever glanced us in response)

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StaticVortex
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 17:35

From my games so far, the Venoms don't seem to last quite as long. My thinking is due to the hull points, as in 5th, two or three glances and you're unable to move or shoot for a turn...now that same result makes you wrecked with a pinning test.

You're right though, not a huge effect really.
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Sat Jul 07 2012, 02:55

Static Vortex: this is exactly my theory with Mandrakes (still not had time off yet to get any games), I think that running a Haemie forwards and giving them a pain token so that they can deal out pinning damage from reasonable shooting (and snap firing vs enemies trying to assault you as you guard an objective with them), particularly if the Haemie has a Hex Rifle too - they can sit and guard and soak: let the enemy shoot the bejsus outta them!

I'm not quite sure how you get a 2+ cover save though sadly? Doesn't the best cover now only give you a 4+ save? So 3+ with Mandrakes stealth?

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Roc
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Tue Jul 10 2012, 18:01

The biggest thing here is to start taking vanilla characters, esp. with Wyches I would think. Between precision shooting and a number of other variables, you should be able to cap either an IC or sarge before assaulting. Once in, challenge an IC with a 15 point character, let him get killed, and have everything else go after the squad. Eventually you'll end up in a peasant fight.

It's a pretty standard tactic in fantasy, and it looks like it should translate over well.
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CaptainBalroga
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Tue Jul 10 2012, 19:01

Roc wrote:
Eventually you'll end up in a peasant fight.

If that goes off of the same idea as a pillow fight, consider me sold!

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Tue Jul 10 2012, 20:41

CaptainBalroga wrote:
Roc wrote:
Eventually you'll end up in a peasant fight.

If that goes off of the same idea as a pillow fight, consider me sold!
This made me lol. The mental picture of wyches holding pillows and just looking at them with a lost expretion as they try to figure out how to kill the other gal with it is priceless! lol!
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