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 Why assault is impractical for DE

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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 22:32

Under brand new rules single Klaw worth points only on biker nobs imo. And 2+ have got Klaws, but sorry - i spoke this w/ shooting weapons in mind. They really don't have many compared to us or guard or marines.
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Greenest
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 22:44

I am quite new to this, but if the IC is in the front, doesn't that also mean that targeting the squad with DLs and DCs automatically targets him? Isn't the point of all of our super cool heavy weaponry that we break down our opponents' carefully made defenses before sending our troops in to eat their souls?

Also, Harlequin troop master can have a blast pistol, right? That's 4 attacks on the charge. 3+ or 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound and whatever invuln. You've at least got a chance there, right? Plus it's ID against MEQ. Or am I mistaken?

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exsquared
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 23:09

Pistols count as a basic CCW, their S and AP don't apply in combat; neither do any special rules (p51).
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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 00:08

Yeah, gonna disagree that Dark Eldar are screwed in assault. Fleet is a huge advantage. Until you've gotten in some games, you probably won't realize it though.
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 00:38

Could you describe some of your experiences Arrex? I have my first game next Weds and I'm keen to get as much insight as possible! Really keen to get our assaults up and kicking Monkeigh arse as quickly as possible!! Very Happy

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 01:00

My take on assult is that instead of being able to mindlessly charge forward and get stuck in first turn now we have to plan alot more and use our heads. That unit im about to charge has a flamer in it, so I shoot the everliving tar out of it with pathfinders to get rid of that horrible weapon that hurts my wyches so. That unit is too large for me to charge, fly some reavers over it or shoot it up. Heck if i've read the rules right you can use your plasma g to snipe units you don't like before the charge(i'm not sure at all about that though, anyone know for sure?)
Getting units into assult now is a challenge, but we have all of the tools we need to make it happen.
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Archon Farath Mure
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 02:16

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
My take on assult is that instead of being able to mindlessly charge forward and get stuck in first turn now we have to plan alot more and use our heads. That unit im about to charge has a flamer in it, so I shoot the everliving tar out of it with pathfinders to get rid of that horrible weapon that hurts my wyches so. That unit is too large for me to charge, fly some reavers over it or shoot it up. Heck if i've read the rules right you can use your plasma g to snipe units you don't like before the charge(i'm not sure at all about that though, anyone know for sure?)
Getting units into assult now is a challenge, but we have all of the tools we need to make it happen.
Right. Personally, I like the new style of assault we need to go for. Feels more fitting than running forward and hoping we kill the target quickly. There's more flair to this.

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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 02:21

IMHO, the key to killing a "unit shield" IC is saturation fire. Darklight weapons and the like will have limited effectiveness because the IC can fob off such wits with a LOS roll of 2+, while taking the non-fatal wounds on his 2+ save.

This does unfortunately mean that such an IC can effectively turn a Tactical squad into a Terminator Squad as far as resilience goes.

But for DE, this is much less of an issue than it is for other enemies. An IC can only act as a unit shield if he is the closest model to the shooter - and we have the best mobility in the game. We just need to deal with these units by taking away their mobility, avoiding engaging with them directly, and shooting at them from angles where the IC cannot have wounds allocated to him.

I think that under 6E, DE's playstyle will actually move to be even more different from "default" playstyles than it was before, with an even greater emphasis on speed, positioning, isolating enemy units, and concentrating firepower.
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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 02:29

@Allandrel +1 and assault based DE goes to shooting...i hope for the better :S

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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 06:17

@Enfernux wrote:
@Allandrel +1 and assault based DE goes to shooting...i hope for the better :S

well any assault based army gan go to shooting, if it does not want to play by the new rules. CC is still viable, you just need to consider more options. Have a sergeant with a low ini weapon, place only him in b2b with the IC, now he can not soak up all the wounds. if he challanges, he still is in b2b with the sergeant. And it's not like we can do the same thing. oh you scord 5 wounds. I'll just go and let my archon save those..

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 07:56

Assault is not dead.We are actually still very good at it.

I do not like random charges either (I play fantasy as well) but on foot we still have a decent charge distance, and the re-roll allowed by fleet makes sure we get upwards on that 2d6 range. From a vehicle we have really only losted 3 or so inches, which isnt that much on the whole scheme of things. Also including pre-measuring, there is no reason we shouldnt be able to get an assault off.

Incubi are still good at chewing up marine squads, which has always been their job to begin with. Their 3+ coversave allows them to survive overwatch pretty easily, and they still kill 1 marine per model. Also being able to remove from base to base allows you to take out powerfists easily, which allows them to survive longer without those power weapon attacks back. The only difference now is that if you play against SW and they take WG Termies, just ignore that squad and hit other weak areas, like long fangs.

Wyches arent going to surivive assauling a tact squad alone, but that wasnt their job in the first place. Their job was to tie up assault specialists like honor guard and TH/SS or lighting claw termies, and they havent lost any effectiveness in that department, and have actually gained some durability with FNP being able to take against power weapons. They also mess tanks up... badly. While I do think wych cult is a dead list, I dont think that this edition will be the death of wyches. In fact I see wych/incubi dual assaults being amazing against your standard marine squads (let the hekatrix w/ agoniser take out the pf in a challenge, while incubi chew through the squad. Even if they dont accept, that PF isnt hitting anything)


Archons are still 100% viable. You are all complaining about 2+ saves... what guess what we got... a 2++. Guess who can make a save against THs or PFs??? us. Guess who can take a AP2 weapon in the form of a power axe??? Us... Guess whos 7 attacks on the charge is going to to that TH/SS Captain while he laughs at his 2++??? Our Archon. Oh and btw... he is S4 now with that Axe... yah... now you cant complain about him being S3...


@Ereshkigal wrote:
Except in 5th you didn't have LOS... a larger unit of marines now is equal to a terminator squad if there is an IC with 2+ inside... 9 marines with one 1 IC in artificer armor will rip through beastmasters like hot butter. I'm sorry to tell you this

now this is seriously something hilarious. So that marine squad is going to stand up to 40 S4 attacks and 30 S3 rending (AP2 btw...) attacks, and thats not even including the beastmasters (you did lose them first... right...) oh... and lets not forget baron, who is in there for assault grenades... and a 2++ after you lose all the beastmasters. Oh... and they have stealth, so when they go through cover (which they ignore now btw) they have a 4+ to 3+ (you do have a ton of ruins right... like any 40k table should be). Thats not even including the jetbike farseer with doom/fortune (oh... he fortunes himself (he is an eldar unit right?) and then his "unit" re-rolls all saves...)

Beasts are by far one of the best units in assault now, and nothing short of nob bikers will drop them.
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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 08:05

With that kind of strength, i doubt even nob bikers are going to do much against them... I only ran beasts one or two games, but I really liked them. The only problem I had with them was their cost, same with RJB... there was other things that I could use to do what they did, but more effectively. I think they'll see some playtime in my lists now though...

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 08:27

@Ruke wrote:
With that kind of strength, i doubt even nob bikers are going to do much against them... I only ran beasts one or two games, but I really liked them. The only problem I had with them was their cost, same with RJB... there was other things that I could use to do what they did, but more effectively. I think they'll see some playtime in my lists now though...

Yeah the beast packs are really costly. I know a guy that modified feris wolves into khymerae, just grab some dryads and kit bash them together and they look pretty cool and are very cheap compared to those finecast khymerae...

edit - oh, points cost. lol sorry it's well past my bed time.

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 08:59

I don't have the rulebook yet (stupid wayland ggrr), so just a quick question.

Don't understand why our Archon has an Axe. What weapon classifies as an axe?

Seriously just asking, not being a smartass.

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ctadkins
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 09:18

under the new rules, when you get a power weapon you can model it a few different ways, and depending on how it is modeled, have slightly different effects.... a power axe is +1 str and ap2 but is unwieldy( strikes at inititive 1).

thats what i have gathered from skimming the rulebook( cant actually afford it just yet Sad ) and from talking to my friends that do have the book.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 09:30

@Ruke wrote:
With that kind of strength, i doubt even nob bikers are going to do much against them... I only ran beasts one or two games, but I really liked them. The only problem I had with them was their cost, same with RJB...

Cost-wise I actually think they are pretty cheap. 10 khymerae, 4 razorwings and a clawed fiend clocks in at 250 points (including beastmasters). For a unit that fast and that powerful I think they're an absolute bargain.

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 09:37

@ctadkins wrote:
under the new rules, when you get a power weapon you can model it a few different ways, and depending on how it is modeled, have slightly different effects.... a power axe is +1 str and ap2 but is unwieldy( strikes at inititive 1).

thats what i have gathered from skimming the rulebook( cant actually afford it just yet Sad ) and from talking to my friends that do have the book.

Thanks for answering.

So you have, like, a list of types of power weapons and you can basically choose which one you want?

Which means for WYSIWYG that you actually have to model an axe or a spear or a sword or whatever, but thats not the point right now.

Ok, wel then we can get an AP2 weapon for our archon apparantly.

But then we can get an AP2 weapon for every character (like sybarites and hekatrix) in our army, right?

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Setomidor
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 09:38

@Count Adhemar wrote:

Cost-wise I actually think they are pretty cheap. 10 khymerae, 4 razorwings and a clawed fiend clocks in at 250 points (including beastmasters). For a unit that fast and that powerful I think they're an absolute bargain.

250 pts and 256 USD...
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 09:48

@Setomidor wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:

Cost-wise I actually think they are pretty cheap. 10 khymerae, 4 razorwings and a clawed fiend clocks in at 250 points (including beastmasters). For a unit that fast and that powerful I think they're an absolute bargain.

250 pts and 256 USD...

Well, as I'm using Fenrisian Wolves, Tyranid Ripper Swarms and an Ambull plus converted Hellion Beastmasters the cost to me is actually £36.40 Laughing

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Baron Tordeck
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 11:21

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Setomidor wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:

Cost-wise I actually think they are pretty cheap. 10 khymerae, 4 razorwings and a clawed fiend clocks in at 250 points (including beastmasters). For a unit that fast and that powerful I think they're an absolute bargain.

250 pts and 256 USD...

Well, as I'm using Fenrisian Wolves, Tyranid Ripper Swarms and an Ambull plus converted Hellion Beastmasters the cost to me is actually £36.40 Laughing
Old warpbeasts from the old range, and a blister of old bats swarms from Fantasy Vampire counts for me.

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Setomidor
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 12:06

Yeah, but with all due respect I think most conversions are falling short of the original models, they're gorgeous! Gorgeous but unaffordable. I'm not cheap in any way and you'll never hear me whine about GWs general pricing, but in this case it's just out of my league.
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Baron Tordeck
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 12:29

I disagree on them being beautiful models, but to each their own. As for affordability, well Its GW what can you say? We are all addicted to their plastic and pewter crack. Some us though cant afford the Bolivian and need to go for the cheap stuff. So we convert from what we got or can get and sometimes those conversions are better than the official sculpts.

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 12:58

I only dislike the Razowings. Very much even. Hate the model. It's ugly as hell...

But the Claw Fiend and Warpbeasts are beautifull IMHO.

In fact, now with 6th for my main assault unit I'm looking at a beastunit for 250 pts. I'm attracted to the increased assault range.

Plus, snapfire will actually make your clawed fiend stronger before attacking!

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 14:33

@tlronin wrote:
@ctadkins wrote:
under the new rules, when you get a power weapon you can model it a few different ways, and depending on how it is modeled, have slightly different effects.... a power axe is +1 str and ap2 but is unwieldy( strikes at inititive 1).

thats what i have gathered from skimming the rulebook( cant actually afford it just yet Sad ) and from talking to my friends that do have the book.

Thanks for answering.

So you have, like, a list of types of power weapons and you can basically choose which one you want?

Which means for WYSIWYG that you actually have to model an axe or a spear or a sword or whatever, but thats not the point right now.

Ok, wel then we can get an AP2 weapon for our archon apparantly.

But then we can get an AP2 weapon for every character (like sybarites and hekatrix) in our army, right?


Yes, any unit that can buy a power weapon can get the following:

Power Sword- User S, AP3
Power Axe- +1 S, AP2, Unwieldy (makes you I1)
Power Maul- +2 S, AP4
Power Lance- User S, AP4: +1 S, AP3 when charging

The problem with putting them on Hekatrix/Sybarites is I doubt they will survive in combat long enough to use them. Although a hekatrix w/ Power Axe grinding against Termies wouldnt be too bad, but personally I think Ill stick to the Agoniser and use wyches in dual assault.
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MrBrokenAzs
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Fri Jul 06 2012, 14:37

@BlckRven wrote:
How about letting your talos deal with IC's in CC, maybe bit of liquefiers and some wracks to help him out? and using 'soft' melee units for the normal troops.

you would 'only' need a portal

Cant assault from WWP, makes it impractical to have a Talos run on to the feild and get blasted for a turn before it can do anything.

6" movement speed gimps them IMO
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