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 Why assault is impractical for DE

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 09:48

@Crazy_Irish wrote:

it is, but it is not the compleat truth. somehow Ereshkigal leafs the part with the ini out.
because that really comes in hand with the beast master squad.

lets look at it. with beastmasters and the 3 different beast types we have we have 4 different ini groupes. the IC can only soak up the wounds from models that are in B2B with him and attacks that are at the same ini as the models in B2B with him.

so if you only putt the kymeras in B2B with him, he can only soak up the attacks of the kymeras. the other attacks go to the other guys in B2B with the 3 other groupes in the beast master squad.

so really not that bad, if you know what you are doing.

Yes that's true, but i said in the first topic that beastmaster could be good. The problem i see with beastmasters is that they are left in the open, every anti-infantry our opponent has will fire at them. How many will be alive to assault? Maybe we need a Clawed fiend to soak up all the fire from the enemy? Will it be enough?
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 09:57

@Ereshkigal wrote:

Yes that's true, but i said in the first topic that beastmaster could be good. The problem i see with beastmasters is that they are left in the open, every anti-infantry our opponent has will fire at them. How many will be alive to assault? Maybe we need a Clawed fiend to soak up all the fire from the enemy? Will it be enough?

but if you said that they could be good, than this sentence of you is wrong:
@Ereshkigal wrote:
9 marines with one 1 IC in artificer armor will rip through beastmasters like hot butter. I'm sorry to tell you this


the problem with any DE left in the open is that it gets shot to bits XD

and yes i think that a mono beast unit is not as good as a mixed one.

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 09:59

But if the unit will get shot down, why should we take it in the first place? With a wwp worked in 5th but now it can't assault from wwp anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 10:05

yes but you get 12" movement and 2W6 attack range, with reroll of the charge distance(either one dice or all). if you start them in cover, you and run them through cover as well, you should have a turn 2 charge.

and a the fear of beeing shot at is always there as a de ;-) and if your lucky, you have night fight, and then they are even better ;-) well even saver.

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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 10:34

According to the BRB, in close combat, hits must be allocated to an enemy model in base contact with the attacking model (or next closest if there is nobody in base to base to the model). So unless that single ic manages to get in btb contact with every single model in you unit (and remember, he can only pile in after we've hit due to our high initiative, so he can't just rush the ic foward in the middle of our unit), the models who are not in btb with the ic but are in btb with the regular mooks can still hit them. Charging a big Beastmaster or Hellion unit into a Marine squad should allow you to position most of them so that they are not in direct contact with the Chapter Master standing in the front. Just charge so that enough models are in btb with him to force your other models move to btb witht he rets of the squad. He can only allocate woulds to the ic if those models are directly in btb with him.

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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 11:04

@Nomic wrote:
He can only allocate woulds to the ic if those models are directly in btb with him.

you missed the part with the Ini. every attack that hits at the same as the ones in B2B with the IC can be allocated to the IC.

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 20:37

It's way to soon for this hyperbolic nonsense....

I played yesterday, and it sure didn't go the way I expected. (I knew getting mileage out of flyers would be tricky, but you have to REALLY plan your angle of attack down to the last detail with them) So there's the problem of IC's with 2+ armor leading squads? First of all, you can zap them with anti-tank guns. Secondly, you can just attack the side of the unit. Think outside the box, people, if you keep playing 40K like 5th edition, you'll get pasted.

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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 21:39

What is this? Flanking? In MY 40k? Next you'll tell me I need to make a formation and wheel around too!

Huh. It's really starting to feel like WHFB with round bases. And I'm okay with that!

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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 23:35

the one thing I fail to see in all of this doom and gloom is that you are completely not including that you can shoot before you assault.

SO If I have 1 IC and a Power fist and a regular 3+ marine, and I have lets say eight wyches, I take 8 shots, 6 hit, 3 wound, I am likely to put a wound on the IC or drop one of the 2 regular marines, assuming nothing else in my army shoots my intended assault target.

Now if I assault, before any combat drugs lets assume then that I have 4 attacks from the hekatrix, 2 hit and 1 wounds. If I am facing the none IC, then the powerfist dies,

Lets assume that one of my wyches died in the snap fire shooting, and I have 6 wyches left, 18 attacks, 9 hit and 4 wound, that means the IC is likely to take 1 one wound.

Now he swings with his 4 attacks, hits twice, wounds twice, and 1 wyches dies.

Combat 2 to 1, wyches favor, and next turn we do it all again, wiping out the IC.

My point is, its doable if you play it smart, but if you think 5 wyches, or 10 wyches are equivalent to a full strength marine squad, then you have it all wrong. They are not and never would or could be.

I am continually amazed by the assault is dead, our army is nerfed beyond all possible hope line of thinking.

I mean oh my America, DE have always been fragile, lasguns are dangerous to us for Pete's sake. Nothin new here. 2 plus armor, so what!?! Ever hear of Paladins, 10 strong with an Apothecary? I don't see any wyches running headlong into to them and expecting to come out on top.

If you are that worried about it, assault a different unit without a 2+ IC in it.

What did we do 2 weeks ago when you did not have a agonizer in contact with a 2+ IC and his band of merry marines, you shot it up a bit, and then assaulted it with overwhelming numbers.

Back to my earlier point, what did we ever do to deal with Paladins or TH/SS Deathwing? How about Bloodletters? How about those big huge blocks of Orks with a nob and power claw or Nob Bikers?

What is different now than it was before? You are going to seriously tell me that one or two dudes in fancy armor with a 2+ save is the end of the game as we know it? Or Terra forbid he gets FNP on top of that?

Its one dude, and a single darklance or blaster shot solves your problem if he is foolish enough to be leading from the front.

We have the precise tools and mobility to deal with any serious threat, even moreso now than before.

Our wyches own armor, our darklight technology owns characters and termies, our poison owns any high toughness models. AND our mobility puts us in the correct position to use it most effectively!

I don't intend to come across as hostile or inflamtory, I really don't. I would only ask all of us to consider what tools we have to deal with the new threats and the rules changes. Just because its more difficult to deal with something the way we did before, does not mean we don't have a way of dealing with it.
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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 00:29

Quote :
SO If I have 1 IC and a Power fist and a regular 3+ marine, and I have lets say eight wyches, I take 8 shots, 6 hit, 3 wound, I am likely to put a wound on the IC or drop one of the 2 regular marines, assuming nothing else in my army shoots my intended assault target.
You aren't likely to anything in that case with the 6th edition. the closest model from your shooting ones take the shots, when it's dead, repeat it again.
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 00:41

All of this fuss about IC's being OP and snapfire being a pain in the ass seems like some random nerd rage because some people dont like the fact that the game changes.

Look at these reasons why assault is still plausable in my opinion:

-BS 1. he might get 2 6's off in a 10 man squad, then he has to wound and you have a save, how small it may be, he has to roll a 6 then probably a 3 and then you can save on a 5 or 6 (most of the time). ONE OR TWO MODELS MAY DIE.

-The fact that you may loose models due to this might make you loose your charge range? Well Tough luck. Learn to play better and safer, you know you had only 2d6 WITH A REROLL to assault him. Make sure you get in even though you both might loose 2-3 closes models.

-I do agree with the idea that assault is harder now because you cannot see clearly the range you have but thats why you have pre-measuring to see whats the chance. And im sorry, if you say that you cant get a squad into CC even though you have Pre-measuring, assault vehicles, 2d6 assault with a reroll , normal movement and possibly combat drugs then you are playing the wrong army.

-OP IC's? NO PROBLEM. since when have the DE played nicely? on fair ground?. Since when have you been taught that you should just assault a squad of 5 termies with 10 wyches or 5 incubi + HQ on equal ground? Our army is created to strike hard and with overwhelming force and only when it is in our favour. Shoot the hell out of them before you assault! you got dark lances, blasters, slinter rifles with a high chance of reroll (doom or splinter wracks), Splinter cannons.

Most people forget that we are pretty good in getting into assault than most other armies (no assault vehicles, no fleet etc)

This post may seem a bit agressive but I am sick and tired of seeing all this gloomy crap about our army. Create new tactics, new counter-tactics, new army lists and HANDLE IT. We are still capable of CC, Its form has changed but it is still there.

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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 00:53

@Fruz wrote:
Quote :
SO If I have 1 IC and a Power fist and a regular 3+ marine, and I have lets say eight wyches, I take 8 shots, 6 hit, 3 wound, I am likely to put a wound on the IC or drop one of the 2 regular marines, assuming nothing else in my army shoots my intended assault target.
You aren't likely to anything in that case with the 6th edition. the closest model from your shooting ones take the shots, when it's dead, repeat it again.

We are very likely to have this situtation. One of those models has got to be the closest. maybe you get both marines killed and are left with the IC, in which case, if you wipe out a unit, you get a pain token. Bonus.

We don't have to play by other armies rules, We are Dark Eldar, we break all the rules and make our own.
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 00:54

I took the 'or' as a choice of the player, my bad if that wasn't the case.
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 01:09

GAR and godreas - I fully respect and love your approach fella, it most certainly IS time to end the moaning and groaning (God only knows I did enough of this on the weekend about 6th!) and start finding solutions: particular as its not even been a week yet and many people (myself included) have not even had a game in yet - let alone a good half dozen or so to really get used to the rules or to even begin to assemble reliable strategies.

I do however have one thorn in the side about the 2+ IC chara in MEQ scenario: can't the IC simply 'look out sir' the Instant Death hits to one of his marines?

I think the solution to this particular issue is as you mention: positioning and the ability to manouvre into this position so that the IC is not the closest target. We also have the unique ability in Hellion squads to 'drag out' ICs from enemy units: though I think that this is going to require some serious practise to begin to understand the mechanics of pulling this off (literally!) correctly.

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GAR
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 01:37

@dangerous beans wrote:


I do however have one thorn in the side about the 2+ IC chara in MEQ scenario: can't the IC simply 'look out sir' the Instant Death hits to one of his marines?

in the given situation, we were worried about charging into a small unit with an IC and a power fist.

What you say is true, but it doesn't matter much since we are trying to weaken the unit to get a successful assault off, so if we are trying to remove models, then removing any model is a plus.

Dragging ICs off with Hellions became viable with the change to FNP, there actually is a chance for survival. Its not much and an IC can do 3 wounds usually, but before there was no chance and now, there is a chance.

Dealing with ICs I don't think is that big of a deal, how many can they have, 2?

Dealing with terminators, sit back and shoot them from venoms and raider and ravagers.

I played some really broken grey knights at Wargamescon 2 weeks ago, and I did a pretty solid job of wiping them out. One army had 30 terminators with feel no pain. Another had 10 paladins, and the other had a mix of Power armor and big terminator units.

I lost 2 of those games because I made mistakes and was running a new list I had not play tested. But even though I lost, my opponents were trashed by turn 5. I had more threats left, and had those games lasted into turn 6( all agmes were random game length and ended on turn 5), I would have tabled them. Its gratifying to see what was once 30 grey knight terminators reduced to 4, or in the case of the paladins, none. but I digress.

Point is it can be done with some forethought and a little planning.
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 01:47

Today Gar, you are my hero, I am sick to death of the negative comments on the boards this last week...

Assault is dead, X unit is no longer viable, X is nerfed... BAH

Improvise, adapt and overcome

Seriously, if you think the DE got that bad go play something else. Very little has changed for me that I can see. Incubi can't charge termies? So what, I never did before.

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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 02:18

@Massaen wrote:
Assault is dead, X unit is no longer viable, X is nerfed... BAH

Improvise, adapt and overcome

Amen.

Don't worry, the upsets and confusion and negativity will fade in a week or 2. Its great to see other players who're keen to take stock and simply move forward - this new edition does look tougher and more austere but those are conditions that we have the flexibility to adapt and overcome any challenges we face.

As has been said before: We are the Dark Eldar, we do not follow conventional rules. We break them with speed, style and spandex...! Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 08:20

There are a few way for us to deal with the 2+ save chracter tanking every hit for the unit. In shooting, he isn't really much of a problem. Remember that he has to be the closest model to take those hits. Given the mobility of most of our army, manouvering our shooting unit sho that the IC is no longer the closest model is not veyr difficult. Now he can't take any wounds for the unit untill enough are dead to make him the closest again. Alternatively, just shoot the bastard. The downside of using you big expensive character as a meatshield is, well, using you big expensive character as a meatshield. We don't have trouble pouring out enough splinet shots to kill even a 3 wound 2+ save model. This is useful for when you want to assault the unit, because if he want to pull off the IC wound tanking in combat, his IC must be in the front (he only gets to pile in after we hit, so he must rely on our units coming in base contact with him directly). Eigher the IC dies or is weakened by shooting, or he starts using LOS to pass those wounds to other members of the unit, allowing us to then down the unit. Alternatively, charge from a position where you don't have to go to base contact with the IC. This is easy to pull off with Beasts and Hellions, since they have 12 inch movement. Wytches and Incubi have more touble tho (Incubi can get around ithe problem somewhat by having a Klaivex in the unit, since he has different initiative). Units that do a lot of hits can just try torrenting the guy down (remember, since he allocates wounds inflicted to the unit to the IC, you effectively hit him on 4+, assumign standard ws4 Marine unit. The IC would on average absorb about 1/3 of a big Beast or Hellion blob's attacks, but you should be able to kill him in a single turn).

Hellion stunclaws actually seem like a pretty nifty thing now. Pull the 2+ save IC away from the unit, making the rest of them vulnerable. A big squad of Hellions wailing on a single IC actually have a pretty good chanse of killing him, especially if you get +1s or reroll wounds drugs.

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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 09:07

@dangerous beans wrote:
GAR and godreas - I fully respect and love your approach fella, it most certainly IS time to end the moaning and groaning (God only knows I did enough of this on the weekend about 6th!) and start finding solutions: particular as its not even been a week yet and many people (myself included) have not even had a game in yet - let alone a good half dozen or so to really get used to the rules or to even begin to assemble reliable strategies.

I do however have one thorn in the side about the 2+ IC chara in MEQ scenario: can't the IC simply 'look out sir' the Instant Death hits to one of his marines?

I think the solution to this particular issue is as you mention: positioning and the ability to manouvre into this position so that the IC is not the closest target. We also have the unique ability in Hellion squads to 'drag out' ICs from enemy units: though I think that this is going to require some serious practise to begin to understand the mechanics of pulling this off (literally!) correctly.

Position your shooting well enough, anyway, any IC character that is in a blob of 10+ more models is something that happens in very few armies and groups of units will not even be assaulted without a "spring cleaning". squads of 10 or less models can easily be shot at by 2 venoms or warriors with reroll and the assaulted by helions which take him and let him 1v20 or assaulted by incubi + draz which will make short work of 1 IC in challenege
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 16:27

Ugh...
Just a thought, can IC lookout against Imp. Missile? There are no "Wound pool" if you hit him w/ rocket...
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 17:47

@Hijallo wrote:
Ugh...
Just a thought, can IC lookout against Imp. Missile? There are no "Wound pool" if you hit him w/ rocket...

We definitely need a FAQ on this, but my thought is that no LOS roll is allowed.

LOS specifically occurs when a wound is allocated to a character model, and that does not happen with Implosion missiles. You get hit, you fail a Wounds check, and you die. There is no wounds pool to allocate, nor does the attack actually cause wounds, just Instant Death. (Until they FAQ it, this also means that Eternal Warriors are completely immune to Implosion MIssiles.)

My main concern over 2+ save characters is twofold:

One, we are going to be seeing a LOT of them. The Space Marine codices, Necrons, and CSM are all capable of fielding 2+ characters in both slots, and then taking an allied IC with a 2+ save. And don't be surprised if armies start fielding an IC specifically designed as a "unit shield." (Kaldar Draigo works as one due to his 2+/3++ and EW).

Two, LOS applies in close combat, and wounds in close combat are allocated by the defending player amongst the viable targets. The "IC shielding the unit" strategy has already been described, and LOS means that any wounds the IC does not want to take (AP2, ID, etc.) can be tossed onto another model on a 2+.

The system does have a built-in counter to the IC shield: the challenge. While an IC can refuse and still act as a shield, he can't attack, which severely reduces his unit's offensive power. However, this still requires that you have a character that can - reliably - kill 2+ save ICs in assault. For us, that is Drazhar and Lelith, and they are both very expensive. Lelith also needs to fail pnly one save against a S6+ weapon to get instagibbed.

It's my feeling that DE will have to play very carefully under 6E, avoiding becoming engaged with character delivery units while wearing them down with "flank shots" that avoid the characters, and picking our assaults to go against units with no ICs. We have the speed to do both very well.

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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 21:57

@Loubaddon wrote:
Something else to remember is that if you EVER charge a squad of marines all full strength with anything you are playing wrong. It is a must that you trim some fat before you drop the cleaver.

I've always found marines to be underwhelming in combat, particularly against Blood Brides. I can understand wyches being average but from my experience, point for point, blood brides are one of the best CC units in the game. I think if you're going to attempt CC with an IC unit intended for CC you need to be thinking about a unit of Blood Brides. In the past I've relied on Hydra Gauntlets to win through volume of attacks but the only way I can see making an IC redundant in CC is through Shardnet & Impaler.

The average 2+ IC will have 3/4 attacks. If he refuses the challenge then his damage output is mitigated with S&P, if he accepts the damage coming back to the squad is mitigated. In my opinion it's our best option in this circumstance.

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Not got a 2+ save? Screwed. Not got AP2 weapons? Screwed. Guess which army has both, in abundance.

Let's face it. 6th edition is Space Marine 40,000.

Sorry but that sounds like lazy journalism. How many armies don't have access to AP2 and AP1 weapons in abundance? In fact I think Guard have more AP2 weapons than any of the marine codices, we have at least 11. As for 2+ I think Daemons and Eldar are the only armies that don't have 2+ saves of some variety, and I'm pretty sure Orks have as many 2+ options as Space Marines, though I could be wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 22:06

Guard don't have 2+. Orks lack ap2 weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 22:13

Their Power Klaws are ap2.
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Thu Jul 05 2012, 22:16

@Hijallo wrote:
Guard don't have 2+. Orks lack ap2 weapons.

True you're right, Guard also don't have an 2+ armour/invulnerable. When was the last time you faced an Ork army that didn't have an abundance of Power Klaws? I understand that it happens but the majority of Ork players I've met bring Power Klaws, lots.
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