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 Why assault is impractical for DE

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Why assault is impractical for DE   Tue Jul 03 2012, 22:23

Except Harlequins, Razorwing flock, Drazhar and Klaivex. And i'm not so sure even about them...

The thing is really simple, everyone will start running their typical assault squad with a sargeant or equivalent and an IC with 2+ armor. Those who can't do that are basically screwed (most of the xeno).

Why is that?

There is a rule in the BRB that says in an assault the wounds must be allocated to the b2b models first, if there are more than 1 b2b model, the controller can choose where the wound goes. Paired with the rule saying if you assign a wound to a model, you have to assign wounds to him until is dead or you have no wounds left to assign.

What does it mean for us?
A typical marine IC with armor 2+ and a power fist is going first, we get to charge and we surely end up in b2b with him. Now, after hitting and wounding it's the time to assign wounds... and the marine player choses to assign a wound to his IC (well, 3 wounds, because it's the minimum amount required to kill him) and then start to save those wounds (at 2+ because our pw are ap3).

This makes his marine squad with 3+ armor almost as resilient as terminators. How many attacks do we need to kill this typical and cheap setup? To remove those 3 wounds we need an average of 18 scored wounds, to score 18 wounds we need an average of 54 hits, to hit 54 times we need 108 attacks. If we have furious charge or poisoned weapons we "only" need an average of 72 attacks. Which is impossible to obtain in the first place... you need a squad of 36 charging wyches to do that and you have to hope no wych will die in the overwatch before.

Then the marines will swing back, and i think they'll do more than 3 wounds. We don't have any 2+ guy to take the wounds for the team (except Drazhar, and that's why he can win the assaults as i stated before).

But hey! We have challenges!!! we can single out that pesky marine IC with an hekatrix (poor dead hekatrix) and slaughter the squad, he can't tank the wounds for the team!!!
WRONG! He can refuse the challenge and while he can't strike back, he can tank the wounds anyway. Sad but true, under the challenge paragraph it's stated that the only 2 things a character who refuses a challenge can't do are: swing back and use his leadership.

But anyway, things could go worse... maybe the marine had a sarge and he will accept the challenge with him, leaving the IC free to annihilate our squad while our uber champion (a tooled archon, or maybe fooled?) scores only 1 single wound.


We have a similar trick with Drazhar, incubi and a klaivex: drazhar can challenge when there is only an IC without a sargeant, or when there is both just don't challenge anything. If the enemy issue a challenge with the sarge, accept with klaivex, if it does with the IC accept with Drazhar. The only problem i see, is the insane cost of this little deathstar.

Harlies and beasts have rending. To kill an IC without an invulnerable save you need only to score 9 wounds on average. Only 54 attacks for the razorwings or 36 for the harlies... and yes, this makes them worthless nonetheless (who runs a squad of 12 harlequins with the kiss?! that's 264 points only to kill an IC worth 140 points and lose the fight right after).


That sums up to: never never go into melee against an IC from the SM unless you are Drazhar. If someone has doubts, GW screwed our melee options. Big time.


p.s.: sure someone will be tempted to bring an huskblade archon or a flesh gauntlet (it's less expensive) on a haemie. But the look out sir it's there for this exact purpose (2+ remember).
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Deamon
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Tue Jul 03 2012, 22:42

You are forgeting an important point. That Marine IC has at best an initiative of 5 while many of our assault troops have 6. If you charge his squad, in a way that you do not end up in b2b contact with him, he won't pile in until his initiative which leave you free to kill other models.
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Tue Jul 03 2012, 22:47

You know it's almost impossible... you have to go b2b with the nearest enemy. If the opponent is somewhat smart the nearest enemy will always be the IC. And you always have to move your models in a way to be in b2b with a model who wasn't already in b2b with one of your models... the only way to avoid that IC is if you charge with 3-4 models top. For sure not with a squad of 10 wyches.

BUT at least one thing you can do (but to do that you need 1 IC and 1 character): move your IC away from his IC, in this way the IC has more initiative so attack first and you can assign wounds to the squad instead to the IC. That is possible. (why you need one character and one IC? to avoid being challenged, the character will accept the challenge and die, while the IC kills his squad)
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BlckRven
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Tue Jul 03 2012, 23:09

How about letting your talos deal with IC's in CC, maybe bit of liquefiers and some wracks to help him out? and using 'soft' melee units for the normal troops.

you would 'only' need a portal

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Venkh
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Tue Jul 03 2012, 23:55

silly post, answered the wrong question Embarassed
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steev
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 03:19

also, factor in challenges. any serious assualt squad is going to need a tooled up character to either win challenges or tarpit powerful characters and get those pesky 2+ saves out of the way. If you cant do either of these then your unit will no longer be assault viable.
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BlckRven
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 03:41

although my last statement hasn't been handled yet, I think I'm going to disagree on you there steev.

In all honesty, I'm not in position to buy the new book yet (I'm on the other side of the world right now).

But as far as I have read a unit without an IC (just 10 identical units (apart from small upgrades)) is not much affected by getting challenged (if even possible).

tarpitting?? just make sure the unit is though enough, or make sure you lessen his attacks, shardnets anyone?


I think it is non-sence to take an overpriced tooled up character just to be able to challange or make it viable.
first of all for the reasons mentioned above.

second of all, there are a lot of squads without character. Specialy since, IMO, transports aren't that efficient anymore. Attack those. Use shooting or more powerdfull CC units (grots or talos) to deal with IC

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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 03:46

Something else to remember is that if you EVER charge a squad of marines all full strength with anything you are playing wrong. It is a must that you trim some fat before you drop the cleaver.

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 08:06

It seems you don't understand. Even 1 marine, 1 sargeant and 1 IC is too strong for anything we have to throw in assault to them (except the talos and drazhar. Sorry if i didn't mention the talos but tbh we have better option than the talos in the heavy slot)...

If there is an iC with 2+ armor we can't win without drazhar or a very lucky klaivex, it's really not important if the unit is 3 ppl strong or 20. It's the IC the problem.

And tarpitting isn't viable anymore, you'll lose the combat by a lot with wyches and you won't tarpit anything. An average of 2 wounds during the overwatch is more than sufficient to win the marine the combat because you won't score more than 1 wound during the assault itself.
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Fruz
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 08:25

Don't forget that your iC at the front line will be the first being shot at as well, so one dark lance shot -> dead i.e.
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Mnemonic
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 08:26

Archon w/ Huskblade only has to get ONE unsaved wound through, unless enemy has eternal warrior. If they get it through they are now Str 6 and destroyed an enemy IC.

For anything else, I have my Ravager's with 3 Dissies (screw dark lances, tanks are too ez to pop)

In an average fight, against an equal opponent, on the archon's 6 attacks he will get 2 wounds, assuming he is against someone with WS 7 T4.

There is an 83% chance of the enemy surviving with his 2+ save on the first attack, 67% to survive both wounds.


So an archon w/ huskblade and CCW has a 33% chance to outright kill an enemy IC with a 2+ save in the first round of combat at initiative 7.

Before any drugs, psychic powers, or other options.

Also, there is a psychological game here. I challenge with my archon, and explain what my huskblade can do. The opponents first thought is going to be "Do I think I can survive all of his attacks without taking a single wound?" If they arent certain, or completely foolhardly, they will deny the challenge and be forced to the back of the combat while the archon and his unit tear through the enemy.
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Briefspite
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 08:30

That is not true Smile,

As an example.

Usually a unit that we attack is not at full strength, this is even more true in this edition with slower charges so a Beastmaster unit should be able to kill the majority of the models in a unit on the charge. This does not apply when charging terminators or similar units.

Razorwing Flocks kill 2+ IC just fine. Make sure the dogs are in B2B with the IC, challenge/accept challenge with a beastmaster, regardless of how many attacks the IC has only one wound is counted towards combat resolution. Kill the unit in one or two turns, and then refuse challenge with the last remaining beastmaster , 2 S3 attacks arent exactly a big loss, and own the IC with the birds.

Rending is AP2 and auto wound on 6's, so lets say we have 4 birds remaining and the birds hit on 4's, so against a T4 2+ save IC

20 attacks, 10 hits ~ rending 1,67 AP2 wounds and 1,67 normal wounds. + any remaining dogs and beastmasters. Sure they dont go down in one turn but you should win in 2-3 turns even with a 4+ invulnerable save.

While your cheap beastmaster unit ties up and kills the IC the rest of your army is free to do whatever it wants without having to consider the IC. Even if you loose it should take a long time, barring a bad LD test, due to the number of wounds the IC have to chop through.

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 08:43

The huskblade archon will never get to deal 1 wound because of LOS or challenges. If you challenge, the opponent will accept with a sarge. If you don't you get challenged by the sarge. If you have another character no one will issue a challenge and the wound dealt by the huskblade will go to a low bob thanks to LOS.

Huskblade is really a bad investment.

And about beastmasters... 2 wounds dealt, and then you lose combat because you don't have any IC inside that squad
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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 08:58

Ereshkigal wrote:
The huskblade archon will never get to deal 1 wound because of LOS or challenges. If you challenge, the opponent will accept with a sarge. If you don't you get challenged by the sarge. If you have another character no one will issue a challenge and the wound dealt by the huskblade will go to a low bob thanks to LOS.

Well you do paint a dark picture here, but you seem to have missed something. The attacks must be placed at the nearest model. Also it is important to notice, that attacks are seperated in different Inis.

So if you place your Klavex against the 2+IC, then only the attacks of the Klavex can be put on him, as the Klavex hits with one more Ini then the regular Inccubi. Sure the Klavexes attacks can be deverted with LOS but we just wanted to keep the 2+IC from taking all the hits. now in Ini phase 5, die Inccubi start to attack, and as there is no Inccubi(ecept the Klavex) in B2B with the 2+IC, the 2+IC can not soak up the wounds.

If you want to take wyches, then add in a char with a different Ini then the wyches, and you can do the same thing again.

sure it is a big difference, and we can also use that to our advantage. Sybarith with goast plate armour. 4+ is better then 5+ ;-)

Ereshkigal wrote:
Huskblade is really a bad investment.
It saddens me, but i can not argue with that. for its price, it is pretty, bad.

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 09:05

Well but i already said some posts ago, the IC with different init level can do some tricks, but we are forced to take either a Power Axe, a Klaivex or Drazhar. Klaivex and Drazhar goes with the same squad that doesn't have PGL, so assaulting through cover will kill this tactic.
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 09:08

Ereshkigal wrote:
And about beastmasters... 2 wounds dealt, and then you lose combat because you don't have any IC inside that squad

Barring abysmal dice rolling why would I lose the combat in the first turn?

And even if I lose the combat once the enemy squad is dead I can still manage to pass a leadership test, I did that in 5th and I am pretty sure I can manage that in 6th as well.

Unless there is a rule stating that you auto lose combats against lone IC, which I doubt.

And to be totally frank, you need to snap out of the "this is impossible" mode. There will be plenty of opportunities to charge something that doesn't contain a 2+/4++ IC. I am pretty sure that not every marine army will contain a 10+ assault terminators, nor that every army we play will be a marine army.

Taking CC units isn't just about being able to attack and win against everything but to bring something else to the table that the opponent has to consider and that opens up new tactical possibilities.

B.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 09:13

Not got a 2+ save? Screwed. Not got AP2 weapons? Screwed. Guess which army has both, in abundance.

Let's face it. 6th edition is Space Marine 40,000.

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 09:15

It's just math... you score 2 wounds and then let's say 1 IC and 4 marines strikes back. Let's say 12 attacks, 9 hits, 6 wounds, 3 invul saves made and 3 wounds taken. And you lost the fight. And only against 5 marines...

Count Adhemar wrote:
Not got a 2+ save? Screwed. Not got AP2 weapons? Screwed. Guess which army has both, in abundance.

Let's face it. 6th edition is Space Marine 40,000.

Well we just have to shoot more than before and forget assault. With our mobility we can fire almost whoever we want.
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 09:21

You are just plain wrong, and your whining on the subject is starting to grow more than a bit tiresome.

Beastmaster units worked just fine against small units of hammernators and larger units of marines in 5th and I cannot see any reason why they stopped working in 6th. If anything beastmaster units became better, not worse.

B.

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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 09:21

Ereshkigal wrote:
Well but i already said some posts ago, the IC with different init level can do some tricks, but we are forced to take either a Power Axe, a Klaivex or Drazhar. Klaivex and Drazhar goes with the same squad that doesn't have PGL, so assaulting through cover will kill this tactic.

well you could also just charge with 2 units. 5 wyches for the 2+IC and 5 Inccubi for the rest. If you have killed the squad around the 2+IC, you challange him with your Succubus, with maybe a venom blade, and see how you get 1,or 2 rerolles per round as you have 5 or 10 models ganging up on the poor lonly 2+IC.

and inccubi alsways needed a char with a PGL to be effective. no news here ;-)

reguarding the beasts. it seems that in your example, Ereshkigal, the 2+IC took all the wounds. to the attacking DE was somehow so stupid, to manage to place 1 of each beast tip in B2B with the 2+IC? because only the beasts which have 1 of theirs in B2B with the 2+IC can hit the 2+IC. the other typs of beasts, that do not have a model of theirs in BsB with the 2+IC just hit the regular ones. So you should make more than 2 wounds.

sláinte

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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 09:29

Briefspite wrote:
You are just plain wrong, and your whining on the subject is starting to grow more than a bit tiresome.

Beastmaster units worked just fine against small units of hammernators and larger units of marines in 5th and I cannot see any reason why they stopped working in 6th. If anything beastmaster units became better, not worse.

B.

Except in 5th you didn't have LOS... a larger unit of marines now is equal to a terminator squad if there is an IC with 2+ inside... 9 marines with one 1 IC in artificer armor will rip through beastmasters like hot butter. I'm sorry to tell you this.

BUT if you read my first post, i said Harlies, Beastmaster and Drazhar are our only choice. Did i not?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 09:36

Ereshkigal wrote:
There is a rule in the BRB that says in an assault the wounds must be allocated to the b2b models first, if there are more than 1 b2b model, the controller can choose where the wound goes. Paired with the rule saying if you assign a wound to a model, you have to assign wounds to him until is dead or you have no wounds left to assign.

Is this really how it works? So an IC can take all the shooting attacks (and get a 2+ LOS save against any he doesn't want) and then take all the melee attacks too? That can't be right!

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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 09:42

You can also take Lelith, if you wanted. She ignores armor saves. Although she wounds on 5+, she has a lot of attacks. If Lord Kaldor Draigo is the gold standard against which we measure cheesy Space Marine ICs, then she still has 7 attacks when not on the charge. She's also pretty survivable and is much cheaper than our Incubi friend.


Ereshkigal wrote:

And tarpitting isn't viable anymore, you'll lose the combat by a lot with wyches and you won't tarpit anything. An average of 2 wounds during the overwatch is more than sufficient to win the marine the combat because you won't score more than 1 wound during the assault itself.

Minor point here but I don't think that overwatch counts for determining assault results. Although "To decide who has won the combat, total up the number of unsaved wounds inflicted by each other side into their opponents," is bolded the more important line is, "This includes all wounds caused during the Fight sub-phase" which implies anything that occurrs in the fight phase but nothing else. If you want to argue that "Overwatch cannot cause morale checks or pinning tests." If casualties inflicted by overwatch were added to combat resolution, then overwatch would cause a morale test.

On a side note, you need to relax a bit and maybe play a game.
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 09:43

The way I see it:

A) There is a 2+ enemy character standing in the front of a MEQ/TEQ. Let's shoot him in the face with Blasters and Dark Lances until he fails his Invulnerable save and gets ID.

B) There is a 2+ enemy character but he's not in the front of the MEQ unit. Let's assault their unit and kill his 3+ buddies with our PWs.

C) There is a 2+ enemy character but he's not in the front of the TEQ unit. Let's drown their unit in dissie fire, then see A.
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PostSubject: Re: Why assault is impractical for DE   Wed Jul 04 2012, 09:43

Count Adhemar wrote:
Ereshkigal wrote:
There is a rule in the BRB that says in an assault the wounds must be allocated to the b2b models first, if there are more than 1 b2b model, the controller can choose where the wound goes. Paired with the rule saying if you assign a wound to a model, you have to assign wounds to him until is dead or you have no wounds left to assign.

Is this really how it works? So an IC can take all the shooting attacks (and get a 2+ LOS save against any he doesn't want) and then take all the melee attacks too? That can't be right!

it is, but it is not the compleat truth. somehow Ereshkigal leafs the part with the ini out.
because that really comes in hand with the beast master squad.

lets look at it. with beastmasters and the 3 different beast types we have we have 4 different ini groupes. the IC can only soak up the wounds from models that are in B2B with him and attacks that are at the same ini as the models in B2B with him.

so if you only putt the kymeras in B2B with him, he can only soak up the attacks of the kymeras. the other attacks go to the other guys in B2B with the 3 other groupes in the beast master squad.

so really not that bad, if you know what you are doing.

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