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 DE in Assaults in 6th Ed

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Hekatrix


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PostSubject: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Sun Jul 01 2012, 14:26

Finally have the BRB and have slapped on my thinking hat Smile

Putting this out there for discussion, but assaulting has been somewhat nerfed for most of our units, except for one; Beasts.

Beasts move a full 12" and aren't slowed by difficult terrain. Charge range is 2D6", Fleet allows a reroll and charging into cover, roll 2D6" aswell.

Rending CC weapons count as AP2 - Razorwing Flocks are a great way of getting a tonne of AP2 CCW and are a great counter-charge to Terminators. Mixing in some Khymera for the invuls and we should see a mean unit that should deal with Termies that get too close.

The Rending attacks also have an AV component to them, and are perfect against Tanks that don't move. 3 Glances and its a dead tank.

As for camping enemies in cover, 2 turns should be enough to get them into Assault. No other unit can assault into cover as far as Beasts can in 6th.

If 2+ is likely to be everywhere, and getting in as many Skyfire missiles as one can, I think Beasts are the perfect answer to these major threats to the DE.


Last edited by 1++ on Sun Jul 01 2012, 15:11; edited 1 time in total
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Ben_S
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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Sun Jul 01 2012, 14:43

1++ wrote:
Charge range is 2D6", Fleet allows a reroll AND if charging into cover/up a level of a building they can roll 3D6 and add the top two, again with Rerolls.

Is that last bit right? That would make them faster charging through cover than open ground. I thought it was just no effect.
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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Sun Jul 01 2012, 15:09

You are right, Beasts have no effect when charging through cover, the last sentance states that Move Through Cover has no effect on charge range rolls...

So 2D6, with rerolls for the charge in cover. Will edit the post.
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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Sun Jul 01 2012, 15:24

I will need more FA-slots...

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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Sun Jul 01 2012, 18:09

Beasts seem to be great, especially with Baron to give them grenades and stealth. They're quite durable and hit with a ton of decent strenght and rending attacks. The new wounding changes allows you to hide Razorwings behind Chimerae to protect them. Hellions seem quite powerful as well, although overwatch hurts them with their 5+ saves. Harlequins might also be good now that they have +3 cover from the Shadowseer. They still only have 5+ saves in melee, but for the most part, their problem has been being shot to death (in melee they have high we and can hopefully kill some of the enemies before they get to strike). Sadly, Wytches have been severily nerfed. Incubi are still pretty good as long as you stay away from Terminators, but that held true before, didn't it (they could kill the 5++ termies, but since everybody uses 3++ ones anyway...)? They still cut through anything without 2+ save like a hot knife through butter.

As for our HQ, the generic ones are nerfed, although giving an Archon a power axe might work. Huskblade Archon can actually go toe-to-toe with 2+ Marine characters (it essentially becomes a matter of who wounds the other one first, and both have roughly the same chanse of doing it). A Haemonculus with mindphase gauntlet might be a fun thing to try, challenging all those powerfisting Marine chars that will invariably pop up.

Of the special characters, Vect would be absolutely awesome if he only had ap2 (why do I have the feeling that when they release a model for him, the FAQ suddenly decides to give his pimp cane an ap value...). Drazhar is actually really good now, being able to beat up even the 2+ Marine chars. However he's still expensive as hell, lacks grenades and can't join anything but Incubi (which have suffered somewhat from not being able to hurt Terminators, and also lack grenades).

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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Sun Jul 01 2012, 19:05

As a new boy on the forums, I'm not going to call myself an expert, but having watched a load of games using 6th edition since the books release yesterday I would not worry so much about things like overwatch. Whilst it makes assaulters more hesitant, rolling a 6 to hit for every shot is very rare, and unless your unit is very small overwatch will tend not to hurt too much.

My only worry would be assaulting heavy weapons units like Devastator squads with a lot of Hvy Bolters, who can really fire off a lot of powerful shots in overwatch or units with flamers who now get D3 auto hits. Still with a bit of tweaking and a few more Beastmasters I get the feeling the DE will still have an edge.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Sun Jul 01 2012, 23:15

Maddness wrote:
As a new boy on the forums, I'm not going to call myself an expert, but having watched a load of games using 6th edition since the books release yesterday I would not worry so much about things like overwatch. Whilst it makes assaulters more hesitant, rolling a 6 to hit for every shot is very rare, and unless your unit is very small overwatch will tend not to hurt too much.

My only worry would be assaulting heavy weapons units like Devastator squads with a lot of Hvy Bolters, who can really fire off a lot of powerful shots in overwatch or units with flamers who now get D3 auto hits. Still with a bit of tweaking and a few more Beastmasters I get the feeling the DE will still have an edge.

I think our main concerns about overwatch are in relation to wyches and the fact that they have no save against 99% of overwatch shots, are easily wounded (T3) and casualties are removed from the nearest models so you could be left out of assault range.

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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Mon Jul 02 2012, 08:10

Count Adhemar wrote:
Maddness wrote:
As a new boy on the forums, I'm not going to call myself an expert, but having watched a load of games using 6th edition since the books release yesterday I would not worry so much about things like overwatch. Whilst it makes assaulters more hesitant, rolling a 6 to hit for every shot is very rare, and unless your unit is very small overwatch will tend not to hurt too much.

My only worry would be assaulting heavy weapons units like Devastator squads with a lot of Hvy Bolters, who can really fire off a lot of powerful shots in overwatch or units with flamers who now get D3 auto hits. Still with a bit of tweaking and a few more Beastmasters I get the feeling the DE will still have an edge.

I think our main concerns about overwatch are in relation to wyches and the fact that they have no save against 99% of overwatch shots, are easily wounded (T3) and casualties are removed from the nearest models so you could be left out of assault range.

You are correct; it could be a bit of a pain to get within arm’s reach, only to have your arm blown off. However, what I meant was that Overwatch is actually quite hard to even connect with, so it shouldn't too bee too much of a deterrent, unless there are a lot of shots to be spammed or your opponent has the favour of the dice gods.

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Urien Rakarth
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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Mon Jul 02 2012, 12:25

Is it really all that shocking that the one unit of ours that seems to have gotten a huge boost is the one that costs us the most to buy the models for?
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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Mon Jul 02 2012, 12:31

Urien Rakarth wrote:
Is it really all that shocking that the one unit of ours that seems to have gotten a huge boost is the one that costs us the most to buy the models for?

Classic GW lol!
But, nowdays khymera come in packs of 2. So a little bit cheaper and your mega-unit of beast won't weigh a ton now scince they are fincast... alien
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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Mon Jul 02 2012, 12:37

NiteOwl wrote:
Urien Rakarth wrote:
Is it really all that shocking that the one unit of ours that seems to have gotten a huge boost is the one that costs us the most to buy the models for?

Classic GW lol!
But, nowdays khymera come in packs of 2. So a little bit cheaper

Mine cost even less as they are Fenrisian Wolves Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Mon Jul 02 2012, 12:45

Count Adhemar wrote:
NiteOwl wrote:

But, nowdays khymera come in packs of 2. So a little bit cheaper

Mine cost even less as they are Fenrisian Wolves Very Happy

That is a good idea sir! I have also been thinking about taking VC Dire wolfs (from WHFB). They look fleshy Smile
Thing is, that I am so in love with the khymera models...damm me....
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Mon Jul 02 2012, 12:50

NiteOwl wrote:
Count Adhemar wrote:
NiteOwl wrote:

But, nowdays khymera come in packs of 2. So a little bit cheaper

Mine cost even less as they are Fenrisian Wolves Very Happy

That is a good idea sir! I have also been thinking about taking VC Dire wolfs (from WHFB). They look fleshy Smile
Thing is, that I am so in love with the khymera models...damm me....

I'm not a fan of the Khymerae models and my Kabal is the Kabal of the Snarling Wolf so I decided that Fenrisian Wolves would be ideal as beasts. Don't like the Dire Wolves models either, which is a shame cos I think they're even cheaper!

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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Mon Jul 02 2012, 12:52

Count Adhemar wrote:


I'm not a fan of the Khymerae models and my Kabal is the Kabal of the Snarling Wolf so I decided that Fenrisian Wolves would be ideal as beasts. Don't like the Dire Wolves models either, which is a shame cos I think they're even cheaper!

Well, that is fitting:) How do you paint your ''wolves''? My first thought on them was to paint them like shadows with red eyes tongue
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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Mon Jul 02 2012, 12:59

NiteOwl wrote:
Count Adhemar wrote:


I'm not a fan of the Khymerae models and my Kabal is the Kabal of the Snarling Wolf so I decided that Fenrisian Wolves would be ideal as beasts. Don't like the Dire Wolves models either, which is a shame cos I think they're even cheaper!

Well, that is fitting:) How do you paint your ''wolves''? My first thought on them was to paint them like shadows with red eyes tongue

They're still in the box at the moment but yes, I think basically as dark and shadowy as possible but with glowing eyes and possibly some sort of glow effect on the fur around their ankles.

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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Mon Jul 02 2012, 13:02

Count Adhemar wrote:
NiteOwl wrote:


Well, that is fitting:) How do you paint your ''wolves''? My first thought on them was to paint them like shadows with red eyes tongue

They're still in the box at the moment but yes, I think basically as dark and shadowy as possible but with glowing eyes and possibly some sort of glow effect on the fur around their ankles.

Nice Smile That's both a cool and cheap way to get your damm khymeras. I will consider it! alien
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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Mon Jul 02 2012, 19:17

NiteOwl wrote:
But, nowdays khymera come in packs of 2. So a little bit cheaper and your mega-unit of beast won't weigh a ton now scince they are fincast... alien

I'm looking at the catalog, and Kymerae come 1 to a pack for $14, metal. Current rumor has it that Khymerae will be re-released in Finecast 4-5 months from now with a price listing of $14, which would pretty clearly indicate that they will still be single-packed.

My khymerae are banshees from the Vampire Counds Mortis Engine. Cost me $2 each from ebay over the course of about two months to collect 9.
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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Mon Jul 02 2012, 19:22

The kymerae were confirmed for finecast next month in the WD issue, as well as they are coming in a 2 pack

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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Mon Jul 02 2012, 19:31

Something else about assault and 6E that just occurred to me. Many armies have been restricted in their ability to reliably launch assaults in a way that we have not.

Armies without assault vehicles that want to assault with infantry out of their transports (Eldar being a prime example) have been hurt badly by the Rapid Fire rules. Previously, when you set up a transport to disembark and assault on the following turn, there was a distinct range where you needed to place your transport, usually with the hatch about 10" from the target unit.

Too close, and they could advance, run, and block off your hatch.

Too far, and you were dependent on a good Run roll.

You generally did not have to worry about the target unit simply backing up because doing so would lose them a turn of shooting with their Rapid Fire weapons, which would mean that your still-embarked assault unit had effectively suppressed the target for a turn without even getting off of the bus.

But now, that RF-armed unit 10" away from the hatch can just move back 6", fire their weapons once at a target 24" away, and know that if you attempt the assault on your next turn you need a very good charge roll, especially after losing 1-2 models from Overwatch.

DE and other armies with Assault Vehicles do not suffer from this problem.

Not sure how this will affect things yet, but it does give me hope that DE assault may still be viable.

Edit:
Shadows Revenge wrote:
The kymerae were confirmed for finecast next month in the WD issue, as well as they are coming in a 2 pack

Huh, you're right I somehow missed that page. And listing only a single catalog number for the Khymerae (the metal ones have 2) would strongly indicate that they come packaged together. (Or that your pack contains 1 random Khymera. Random single miniature packs are nothing new for GW.)

Edit 2: Looking over the transport rules again, I discovered that units that disembark cannot assault that turn at all unless their transport was an assault vehicle (which means DE, Orks, and Land Raiders - I won't count Necron Ghost Arks because they don't carry assault troops). You can no longer disembark from a stationary transport and assault the same turn.

This basically means that CW Eldar assault is kaput. No longer can their transports move into position so that on the following turn the unit can disembark and assault or stay in the transport to be re-positioned. They have to disembark and stand around getting shot for a turn, and must disembark close enough to their target unit that their target cannot just back out of range and Rapid Fire them.

Space Marines likely will not suffer as much, since they have plenty of assault troops with movement bonuses (especiall BA and SW) and access to Land Raiders.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Tue Jul 03 2012, 10:14

And assault just goes from bad to worse. Good work GW!!

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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Tue Jul 03 2012, 10:25

Allandrel wrote:
Looking over the transport rules again, I discovered that units that disembark cannot assault that turn at all unless their transport was an assault vehicle (which means DE, Orks, and Land Raiders - I won't count Necron Ghost Arks because they don't carry assault troops). You can no longer disembark from a stationary transport and assault the same turn.

since when does being open topped transport confer the assault vehicle rule? Dont have a 6th yet, sry. If it says that open topped transports are assault vehicles than ok, but if not, then we cant either, unless the open-topped transport has a special rule for it like in 5th.

Gona check something for eldar, but i think that their assault troops have been bad since gunfire was invented Razz - and thats why i use Avengers with bladestorm Smile

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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Tue Jul 03 2012, 11:02

I''ve been reading the forum for a while but did not post too much, but with 6th I decided to be more active Smile

So, I'm a bit concerned about assaults with DE in 6th... As our infantry wears wet paper tissues for armor, AND there is this Overwatch thing, I don't really see how we could get into assaults and successfully win them. (Not to mention that we now cannot assault out of a WWP. (And Nidz got nerfed again as Genestealers cannot assault from outflank, but that's another story))
I just see 6th ed. as a shooting game in which we have 50% chance not to be blown out of the map is we go second (horaay 4+ Night Fighting) since we cannot go full reserve anymore.
Incubi took a hit with AP3, but truth to be told they were never good against Terminators because of the 3++ Storm shield. No they cannot kill Broadsides and 2+ armored things without invu as well. Nice.
Wyches are I'm afraid even worse then they were before, although any vehicle that they assault will just die because of haywire grenades. Other then this, I think DE will become a shooting army in 6th ed.

As for Khymera, I'm thinking on using Chaos Warhounds (with some modified Tyranid bitz) from WHFB. They are decently sized, and waaay cheaper then finecast. And I can have more variety with them Smile
For Razorwings I think I'll just have to wait for the finecast models. But for Beastmasters I'll convert from Hellions for sure.

Double FOC for 2k+ points seems cool as Heavy and Elite slots are always full for me. 4 Ravagers with 2 Razorwings, hmm hmm. Seems nice Smile
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PostSubject: Re: DE in Assaults in 6th Ed   Tue Jul 03 2012, 11:44

[quote="Enfernux"]
Allandrel wrote:

since when does being open topped transport confer the assault vehicle rule? Dont have a 6th yet, sry. If it says that open topped transports are assault vehicles than ok, but if not, then we cant either, unless the open-topped transport has a special rule for it like in 5th.

Gona check something for eldar, but i think that their assault troops have been bad since gunfire was invented Razz - and thats why i use Avengers with bladestorm Smile

If you don't have the book, why are you arguing about rules? Open Topped have the assault vehicle rule now.
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