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 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)

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Captain Mayhem
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 03:37

@dangerous beans wrote:
Mayhem - your points are true from a non-DE sense, but Hellions (and Scourges too if ya really wanna) shouldn't need to save their jetpacks for the assault phase because fleet offers you the same bonus as using a jetpack assault: Fleet says re-roll one or more dice during any run or assault moves.

Thus: move 12" in movement and assault 2D6 re-roll 1 or both dice as needed. You're not nerfed at all bro (from DE jump infantry point of view)

course not. I've always gone full bore with hellions/beasts. full 12" move, run/shoot (run if I was further than 6"/shoot if I were within 6") then smash face. It was DISGUSTING. I got them because they were fast. and now they're blenders on skyboards.

I still think back and laugh at the one game I had with nids where I unleashed a blob of 12 hellions against a bunch of tyranid warriors. the poor bloke had them in the middle of his heavy and his troops, and his mouth just dropped.


sure shooting is more brutal now with the different wound allocation but.. wah. my poor tau. no speedy JsJ. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 05:26

@Sorrowshard wrote:
Hum yeah I'll second that. Lower cover saves and nerfed Fnp does nothing to help reavers surely?

Actually Reavers now have a 4+ cover save if they moved, and still have a 3+ if they Turbo Boosted. This is because as bikes they have Jink: 5+ cover save if the unit moved at all, or 4+ if the unit moved flat out/turbo boosted. Skilled Rider provides a +1 to these Jink cover saves, and also lets Reaver ignore dangerous terrain rolls entirely.
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Archon Farath Mure
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 06:25

Hm. Agoniser doesn't seem worth it anymore on an archon or succubus, though I could be wrong, and I plan to test both it and other options. A power lance looks like a tempting alternative, and even a plain power sword looks like a better buy, though not by much. As I expected, we have even less reason to assault TEQ.

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 07:03

@Painjunky wrote:
Grumpy kwi your avatar makes me think of Mat Ward standing over the DE codex brandishing the mighty 6th ed nerf bat! We all know this happened at some stage! Very Happy

I really want to know what happened to Phil through all this, is this how he envisioned his codex to end up? He knew about all these changes? I dunno about that.

Thinking of changing the avatar - might be time for a change, dunno.

Question about Drazhar, some of you were just talking about him somewhere but:

Can he declare or accept a challenge and then dart to another part of the scrum and kill others while the other challenger just stands there with a thumb up his arse? (since he will not be in base contact with anyone because draz left?).

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@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 07:29

@Captain Mayhem wrote:
only thing that really got under my skin was the fact they just lumped jet packs and infantry together as technically one entry.

i'm sorry but.. my tau has jetpacks. they should be able to move more than someone walking on FOOT! so they just hover in the air going putt putt putt? It's a jetpack for crying out loud. jetpack = fast.

eh so what if they can do a 2d6 assault move. that makes them either faster or slower, depending on what result I get. and if it's all snake-eyes.. bleh.

I was all ready to smack the crap out of armour until I saw that.

I think you are thinking of Jump Infantry and Jet Packs as being the same thing. That is wrong. Jump Infantry are units such as Assault Marines, Scourges, Warp Spiders and so on. Jet Packs are Tau exclusive, they're battlesuits. Two similar pieces of wargear that work quite differently. It would make absolute zero sense for Tau jet packs to work the same way as it does for Jump Infantry, because Tau don't need assault bonuses. Apart from XV9 (seen as too a drastic change in the doctrines by many Ethereals) and Farsight, they have no close combat battlesuits at all. They are fire platforms, and thus they give you the JSJ ability and Relentless.


As for WWP, Reavers are another unit that does not care about the WWP change. They can zoom around even better now, are now T4 at all times as per the new FAQ and get 3+ cover after a turbo boost (presumably over your enemy's most prized units).

It is still a heavy blow to our assault power, though.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 08:33

@Allandrel wrote:
@dangerous beans wrote:
@Allandrel wrote:
or jump out of the portal and spend a turn getting shot up is a big drawback.

Place the WWP near to Terrain, move your beasts straight into it for cover? Then following turn move them their 12" straight at the enemy... Could be one way for WWP 'assault' to be viable?

Do beasts ignore the I1 penalties for assaulting into cover? If so, do they suffer this if assault out / through cover too? Afraid I won't have a BRB for about a week (payday)

Beasts are not slowed by difficult terrain, even when charging.

They have Fleet, which lets the re-roll one or more dice when running or charging.

They have Move Through Cover, which means they automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests. (It also allows units moving through Difficult Terrain in the Movement Phase to roll an extra die for movement just like in 5th edition, but as noted above difficult terrain does not slow Beasts at all.)

Beastmasters do not have any rules that let them strike at normal Initiative when charging through difficult terrain. The assault rules state that the penalty applies if any models in the charging unit had to move through difficult terrain as part of its charge move - there's no exception for units that are not slowed by moving through difficult terrain.

Edit: Never mind. Was addressing the wrong issue.

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Ben_S
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 10:40

@Venkh wrote:
Thing is, the fast stuff can be in that position in turn 2 anyway.

Deploy 12" in, move 12" then fleet into terrain.

Not seeing any reason to deploy them using the webway.

Well, that's fine if your target is also near the front of their deployment zone and more or less straight in front of your beasts. Using the WWP obviously gives you a much bigger threat range.

Also I understand some missions are now played along the length of the table - I don't know if that makes 'no man's land' larger, but even if not it would give a gunline army (Tau/IG) a deeper deployment zone to hang back in.

@Yrddraiggoch wrote:
I originally bought, built and planned on 3 Cronos arriving mid table via WWP. Is this now a totally crapped out plan or do they need to be loaded up with shooty upgrades to be effective?

Admittedly I did not plan this out of any serious tactical advantage but because i thought it would look really cool.

I think they would need the shooty upgrades, but I'd have taken at least one of those before anyway.
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 13:36

I think that jetpack/jump troop issue has been sorted - frankly I don't think Hellions have suffered such a bad nerf, and if you were constantly 'beating face' with them captain then perhaps they deserved to have a slight nerf.

Firstly, any idea if you can cluster caltrop vs enemy fliers? I assume not when zooming sadly...

Anyway thats not why I'm posting - is our best way to deploy WWPs the standard old:
1. deploy 'WWP Carrier' (haemie in my lists) in a raider at the edge of deployment zone (preferably in cover)
2. move the raider 6" and drop off the WWP Carrier + passengers
3. move WWP Carrier + passengers 6" to the point you want the WWP
4. Drop the WWP in the shooting phase and hide behind it

So we lost another 2" with WWP placement too right? (6"+6" VS 12"+2")

Hmmmmm, is it wise if using 2 WWPs to zoom the 2nd raider+carrier into the back half of the opponents deployment zone and place the 2nd WWP there for turn 3+ entry?

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 14:44

@dangerous beans wrote:
Firstly, any idea if you can cluster caltrop vs enemy fliers? I assume not when zooming sadly...

I believe the caltrops rule is the definitive ruleset that prohibits it from being used on non-vehicle targets.

Quote :
Anyway thats not why I'm posting - is our best way to deploy WWPs the standard old:
1. deploy 'WWP Carrier' (haemie in my lists) in a raider at the edge of deployment zone (preferably in cover)

This would remain the same and I believe it is better now if night fight is in place. This is something that gets better for WWP armies - I never did much shooting in the opening turn, it was usually just getting units into place and wait for the punishment.

Quote :
2. move the raider 6" and drop off the WWP Carrier + passengers

Weird, yes, but yah.

Quote :
3. move WWP Carrier + passengers 6" to the point you want the WWP

Yes again, you could still have a group of Mandrakes waiting in cover for the haemy to join - not many people did this but it remains the same.

Quote :
4. Drop the WWP in the shooting phase and hide behind it

Yes, not sure if the you can claim cover from the WWP. I thought there something that said you can't claim cover from behind the wwp but I think that was in the last rule book? Meh, the gloves are off so yes, I am claiming cover behind it.

Quote :
So we lost another 2" with WWP placement too right? (6"+6" VS 12"+2")

Meh, the 2" would be at the most at the 26" from our board edge (12" deployment zone start + 12" movement of raider + 2" for deployment). I will be honest there wasn't always a need to put the portal that deep on the board and the times I did I was charged on the first turn. I was on average putting the portal shy of the midline anyway (not going to notice the 2").

So this trade off for having Night Fight and protecting our starting deployers off sets this.

I would give up 2" lost on the portal deploying for night fight easily - this is a win for most WWP deploying lists.


Quote :
Hmmmmm, is it wise if using 2 WWPs to zoom the 2nd raider+carrier into the back half of the opponents deployment zone and place the 2nd WWP there for turn 3+ entry?

This would still work or even put the 2nd deployer in reserve and use the portal. Of course, you might want a Com station to re-roll this guy but getting to come out on a 3+ with a re-roll would be a pretty good bet he will come out on the 2nd turn.

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@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 15:07

Yeah very true, the night fighting really does help - especially if taking strategy as part of the Warlord's Trait's (better chance of Night Fighting).

I think that duality for the units arriving would be wise too - so for me, Talos and Hellions are in (can provide some half decent shooting on arrival) followed by assault during the following turn. Scourges would be good coming out of the WWP too - mine are armed with heat lances for that suicide anti-landraider charge! But if armed with Haywire Guns and Blasters, they could camp in the terrain too and be a nuisance!

I like your idea of Haemi move into joining the Mandrakes - not thought of that before and gives them a shooting ability as well as the FnP

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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 17:26

Hey DG,

I am going to refrain from WWP tactics in this thread and just post it in the other wwp thread.

I think we bludgeoned wwp in the FAQ enough and now I am already getting ideas on how I am going to adapt to using the wwp.

Don't get me wrong, I am still in shock but I think we will just have to mull through the specifics and see how we can bring back the tactical flexibility of using the wwp.

I got ideas.

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@Sorrowshard wrote:
Behold my jack-in-a-box anti psycher death wave *phut* *Archon looks at Heamo, looks back at Gk's still pounding up the battlefield towards them*

"is that it ?" ....
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Captain Mayhem
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 19:38

@Siticus the Ancient wrote:


I think you are thinking of Jump Infantry and Jet Packs as being the same thing. That is wrong. Jump Infantry are units such as Assault Marines, Scourges, Warp Spiders and so on. Jet Packs are Tau exclusive, they're battlesuits. Two similar pieces of wargear that work quite differently. It would make absolute zero sense for Tau jet packs to work the same way as it does for Jump Infantry, because Tau don't need assault bonuses. Apart from XV9 (seen as too a drastic change in the doctrines by many Ethereals) and Farsight, they have no close combat battlesuits at all. They are fire platforms, and thus they give you the JSJ ability and Relentless.

no no, i'm not thinking assault bonuses at all. I'm thinking the range in movement needs to be better than just six inches. Because other than just being able to end movement in impassable terrain (why would you even want that??) they move exactly like regular infantry.

i mean come on. jet packs. faster movement. they're not walking aids.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 20:01

That's how they've always worked. Jump infantry=12'' movement, jet pack infantry=6'' in movement phae and 6'' in assault phase, even if you don't assault. They work just like tha now, but the movement in assault phase is 2D6 inches (which on average is slightly more).

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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 20:07

Yep, that's how they've worked since I played Tau. Instead of 12" of jump infantry, they had 6" and 6" jumps before and after shooting.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 22:14

exactly. now that they've had the chance to give them a boost movement wise, they didn't.

sure they have the potential to move faster in the assault phase, but there's that VERY REAL RISK of rolling snake eyes, even with a re-roll.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 23:18

@ Kwi - yeah I couldn't agree more mate, theres nothing we can achieve by complaining so we might as well adapt or give up! I'll join ya over on the WWP thread...

@ Captain: how many laptops or computers have you replaced in your lifetime Captain? Sometimes technology fails you right when ya need it the most...

Sadly, the point is the change has happened, and we all know how terrible GW are about changing rules once its in an FAQ - it might as well have been carved into stone and tablets sent to every GW shop in the world...


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Captain Mayhem
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sun Jul 01 2012, 23:42

replaced? none. I usually get new bits when I need an upgrade. And the stuff that I pulled out is in storage and could be fired up and working right now if I was so inclined.. but I usually sell that stuff off first. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Mon Jul 02 2012, 04:50

What does it look like the standard point totals are going to be for 6th? In 5th it was 1500, 1750, 1850... but with allies rules and fortifications, does it look like those are going to increase?

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Mon Jul 02 2012, 05:51

First, full disclosure: I am a complete noob to playing DE, and 40K in general. That said, I'm glad some of you are able to take a breath after the release of our FAQ and come down from the hysteria a bit.

But I'm just getting warmed up.

WWP fail and lack of CC viability for wyches or incubi have got me rethinking this army. Why GW would nerf the hell out of one of the most balanced codices is so, well, GW. I like to play fluffy, I like to assault, and I hate Venom spam. This needs to be fixed, and fast.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Mon Jul 02 2012, 07:33

If something as minor as the small nerfs here have turned you off of DE, it probably wasn't the army for you anyway...

Maybe Draigowing?

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Mon Jul 02 2012, 08:22

@Ruke wrote:
If something as minor as the small nerfs here have turned you off of DE, it probably wasn't the army for you anyway...

Maybe Draigowing?

Don't be so hard on the new one, the Haemonculi hasn't showed him the pain yet ;-)

The Sovereign, first of all welcome to the Dark City, come and lern in the Think Tank of the Webway.

So as may, you think that CC is now lost to us? Well if you say so? No, realy. The WWP surely got a nerf, so now you just have to rethink. wyches, well if you let them charge from cover, you'll even get a coversave, as the snap shot is a shooting attack. also in the Good old days wyches had no FNP, there they still where playable, and now they even have FNP against power weapons. so now they are even better against specialised CC troops. And Inccubi, seriously, only the likes of me send them into CC with Terminators. and against a Termi Captain, there is still the Klavex. no you are way of, it ain' so bad as you think it is ;-)

Ruke, i guess it will mostly be under 2000P. gess 1850P is a good point to stop. just have to wait and see.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Mon Jul 02 2012, 08:30

Aw, c'mon, Ruke...no need to bash a guy on his first post.

I'm just sad they couldn't FAQ the Dais as a Chariot.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Mon Jul 02 2012, 17:29

@Ruke wrote:
If something as minor as the small nerfs here have turned you off of DE, it probably wasn't the army for you anyway...

Maybe Draigowing?

Cute. Very cute. I'm assuming that comment applies to those with similar complaints in this thread?

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Mon Jul 02 2012, 19:02

@The Sovereign wrote:
First, full disclosure: I am a complete noob to playing DE, and 40K in general. That said, I'm glad some of you are able to take a breath after the release of our FAQ and come down from the hysteria a bit.

But I'm just getting warmed up.

WWP fail and lack of CC viability for wyches or incubi have got me rethinking this army. Why GW would nerf the hell out of one of the most balanced codices is so, well, GW. I like to play fluffy, I like to assault, and I hate Venom spam. This needs to be fixed, and fast.

Incubi really weren't hit very hard. As you say you're new to DE, I'll assume that you haven't thrown Incubi into assault terminators before. In 5E, that kind of assault could go either way, though in my experience termies would often come out on top. Incubi have never really been there to take out terminators, but they'll slaughter anything in power armor. That hasn't changed at all.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Mon Jul 02 2012, 19:24

Let keep this civil please.

@Soveriegn

That being said, the thing about DE is that there is not one way to do something.

Personally, I am not a fan of wyches in close combat. I do it, but they are primarily tank hunters as I run them.

They are decent in CC only because of the 4+ invul, which has not changed.

Other disagree.

Incubi, were good at getting rid of tactical temies, but horrid against assault termies. Now they are not very good at getting rid of termies, but in my opinion you should have been shooting them with lances and blasters already anyway.

So 6th has given us a few things that tweak us, but I don't feel as if we have been utterly nerfed, things are just different now is all.

I think WWP is going to be viable again, once we adjust to the new rules changes. It won't be like it was, but that does not mean it cannot be effective.

Anyway, welcome to the forum and welcome to learning your way around the the new edition same as the rest of us.

For what it is worth, DE are not the fluffiest army out there. I played fluffy and usually got tabled by turn 2 or 3. You do need to have a bit of an mean edge to be even remotely competitive in a friendly game. I say this because our army is so very fragile that entire units vaporize very quickly from the least of our opponents units. You will have to outhink and outplay your opponents. I personally enjoy the challenge and it is a very rewarding army once you kind of figure things out.
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