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 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)

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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:21 pm

Vendetta spam is silly and broken. Unfortunetly, if you see one, your only way to win is wreck your opponent's face, destroy his golden vendetta and force him to play just strong, not broken list.

No army can handle them. Just no one. It's billion times worse then GK.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:26 pm

@Hijallo wrote:
@Captain Mayhem wrote:
at least my playstyle is unaffected.. duke's deepstriking ravagers/venoms are still good to go.

You are wrong, you cannot reseve more then half of your army. Suddenly, Marines still can go all-drop: coz all models who MUST be placed in reserve, don't count toward this rule.

how am I wrong when I never said I was going to reserve it all? Look kid, what you think I said doesn't translate into what I actually said. I can have my hellions, beastmasters, the two HQ's and the warriors on the table, and all vehicles in reserve. As it stands, there's thirteen units in my army total, five of them are vehicles. I don't play your meta dude. quit thinking like everyone does.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:20 pm

Huskblade Archon vs powerfist Marine character actually ends with the Archon slightly more likely to kill the Marine than the other way around. The Archon scores an average of 0,18 wounds a turn, while the Marine scores 0,16, and the Archon goes first. With Drugs and charge factored in, the Archon would do better. Still, HB/ST combo has always been kinda expensive and probably isn't worth it. Not to mention useless against characters that have EW (thankfully the only one we'll probably be seeing is Lysander, since he's one of the only special characters with 2+/3++ and a thunder hammer).

Vendetta spam is crazy broken, but that's less to do with us not being able to deal with it, but with nobody being able. Most armies (all except Guard) have no units that can take out fliers aside from other fliers (and that fortification you can buy that has an AA gun). Most armies can 3 fliers at most (plus one from allies). IG can take 9. Only army that can match that, barely, is Necrons if they take Night Scythes for every unit, but Night Scythes are a lot less powerful than Vendettas (less av and weaker guns). Vendettas have always been way underpriced for an av12 fast skimmer with scout and 3 lascannons. Now they're even more underpriced as fliers, and nobody has enough AA fire to shoot down 9 of them before they wreck his entire army. Hopefully GW realizes that and gives armies more AA weapons (although our best bet would probably be an allied Eldar Firestorm, whcih doesn't really do much to Vendettas with its s6 gun).

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:41 pm

Vendetta spam is... as broken as DnD 3.5 Ed.

It just ruins the whole game. IG should be banned on tourneys lol or play only against their own codex.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:49 pm

Regarding AA weapons:

On page 57 of the BRB, the 'Missile Launcher" entry contains the following:

"All missile launchers come with frag and krak missiles as standard, and some have the option to include flakk missiles.

Flakk missile: Range 48", Strength 7, AP4, Type: Heavy 1, Skyfire"

The option to take flakk missiles has not been added to any of the FAQs, so this does not affect anything at this time. But it does indicate that GW intends to start giving armies proper AA options.

Obviously, non-IG armies getting effective AA only slowly over the next 6 years or so is very unbalanced, but in metagame terms we can expect one or two non-IG armies to affect the number of IG armies spamming fliers, just as IG affected how many Ork Nob Biker armies people played.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:51 pm

Deathwing Belial w/termie troop allies? why, yes, yes I think I will...

What's that you say? I can has more bikes to use? why thank you sir!

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:57 pm

How many ML's can you field? S7 isn't great thing against Armor12, so Venda Spam would be viable.

And unless Vendetta Spam Guard would've got a hard (really hard) counter, i doubt there is point in "competetive" play.

May be i should just sell my DE then forgot about Warhammer...
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:57 pm

Another thing to consider will be the prevelance of them at a local "game night" level. At least in my area we're a fairly small group and players who take build super broken lists tend to be shunned and disliked. No doubt vendetta spam will dominate GTs for a while, but I can't imagine whole clubs switching over to it, over people not refusing to play someone who brings a list like that to non tourneys.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:00 pm

Things like Vendzilla or IC who protects blob of orks or guard w/ his shiny 2+ are marks of quality. They are _obviously_ broken, so GW didn't care about it at all. Then i conclude 6E IS ill-designed. Not only for Dark Eldar - ill-design affect all armies.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:48 pm

Personally,

I feel after having read the FAQ and part of the rules, DE are going to have some shifts in the current edition. Same as everyone else. I would politely offer that up as its not just us, everyone is going to have to make some adjustments.

Not having played WWP portals lists, my thoughts early on are that instead of assaulting out of it, it might be a very convienent way to deploy a whole mess of reavers, hellions, scourges and just pound whatever is in shooting range while our assault elements rush up and wait for the turn 2 assault.

Its not perfect, but nothing ever is, and as always with DE, its a thinking man's army, there is not auto win button for us, we leave that for our less talented opposition in bright silver. We have always had to think ahead, out think and outplay out opponents. I don't see how anythng has changed, in the grand scheme of things

My initial thoughts are though that:

Gunboat raiders got a lot more powerful with splinter racks,.

Reavers got a bump, as did anything else with haywire.

Feel no pain does really hurt us as much as it did power armor units. Personally I am liking being able to knock off Grey Nights, plague marines and BA a little easier than before with splinter fire.

Nightshields are more powerful now than before in simple denial. We can sit back and shoot more effectivly and precisely with premeasurement.

Beast got stupid sick with new rules for movement and assault.

Wyches are to me, what they have always been, best tank hunters in the game. I would always shudder when a dread or a termi unit would engage them, could it was always a slow drawn out death that should have been avoided. but now with the new WS, they are so much more of a threat than ever, multi-charge, so what, a few hits here and there and armor is a wreck, plain and simple.

Lesser played characters look a little better, but overall, my opinion, and it is that, my opinion, is that AP2 things are best shot before they can do anything.

anyhoo, my thoughts, not specifically directed at anyone or any post, just my thoughts early on.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:52 pm

Seelenberührer (page 2) wrote:
So you can't assault out of a WWP anymore. This only makes it useless if you regarded assault as being the only possible value of the WWP, ignoring the tactical flexibility it offers.
The issue my friend is the sheer dedication of time that Kwi has spent buying, making, painting and really finding a very unique style of play with some very expensive models. Its a huge kick in the nuts for players with lovely themed ideas which focus on tactics that are not the norm (owning an all wych troop slot army myself without the use of raiders but using WWP instead).

What I think players like myself and kwi had hoped for was a shake up of the old and (IMHO) boring venom spam lists and instead allowing our more unusual lists a chance to engage new opponents in a different way. Sadly, this FAQ appears to ruin this dream for these players, and forces us instead to turn back to shooting as a focal point for winning games using DE, which is a gutting shame as the WWP was always such an iconic symbol of our army, and one which will probably appear less frequently and means that assault lists will likely all look the same now (Raider spam for transport). Perhaps once we've all had a chance to study the rules, try some very painful games and talk some more as a community, we will begin to find some cracks - but frankly right now, it looks like the Dark Eldar assault themed armies are going to become an extinct species.

Which means a lot of time and money wasted.

Kwi I feel yer pain buddy, but I'm sure we'll find some kind've way to get through this...

On a different note - my favourite quote of today:

Me: "ok, so it looks like the dark eldar - with some of the galaxy's most elite warrior sects armed with the most high tech weaponry cannot engage terminators in the assaults for which we are so famed due to the AP3 of all power weapons. How do you suggest we now deal with terminators?"

GW Staff Member: "errrr... Wracks? You know, cos you have that awesome 5+ feel no pain save ALL the time, and er... because poison got better..."

Me: "Sorry, can you say that again? Poison got better?"

GW Staff Member: "Yeah - if your strength is higher than their toughness then you roll based on your strength value if its better than the 4+ from poison"

Me: rigor mortis sets in after the jaw drop

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:58 pm

Delivering assault units via raider is much harder now.
Footslogging diddnt get any easier

I agree that its back to square 1 with venom/darklight spam.

Usual complete lack of imagination and consideration in GW FAQ's
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:04 pm

@GAR wrote:
Reavers got a bump, as did anything else with haywire.

Reavers are flat-out better in nearly every way under 6E. Glad I bought so many.

Quote :
Nightshields are more powerful now than before in simple denial. We can sit back and shoot more effectivly and precisely with premeasurement.

Agreed. The ability to guarantee that your NS put you out of range is really good.

Quote :
Beast got stupid sick with new rules for movement and assault.

I'm going to give them a few games before I come to a conclusion. On the one hand, having to footlsog across the table or jump out of the portal and spend a turn getting shot up is a big drawback. But on the other hand, Beastmasters are more survivable against shooting than wyches, lose none of their assault prowess, and all your Beastmasters are characters, enabling them to lock up your opponent's super-character with challenges, leaving them to cause only 1 wound each turn. (Challenges in 40k have no Overkill the way fantasy challenges do.)

Quote :
Wyches are to me, what they have always been, best tank hunters in the game. I would always shudder when a dread or a termi unit would engage them, could it was always a slow drawn out death that should have been avoided. but now with the new WS, they are so much more of a threat than ever, multi-charge, so what, a few hits here and there and armor is a wreck, plain and simple.

Yup. I think it is important to note that
a) Vehicles cannot fire Overwatch. Passengers can fire Overwatch via fire points, but this is minor compared to the Overwatch fire of a 30-strong Ork or IG unit.
b) Multi-charging loses the bonus charging attacks... which we do not get with grenades anyway. Wyches empty out parking lots.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:31 pm

@Allandrel wrote:
or jump out of the portal and spend a turn getting shot up is a big drawback.

Place the WWP near to Terrain, move your beasts straight into it for cover? Then following turn move them their 12" straight at the enemy... Could be one way for WWP 'assault' to be viable?

Do beasts ignore the I1 penalties for assaulting into cover? If so, do they suffer this if assault out / through cover too? Afraid I won't have a BRB for about a week (payday)

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:42 pm

only thing that really got under my skin was the fact they just lumped jet packs and infantry together as technically one entry.

i'm sorry but.. my tau has jetpacks. they should be able to move more than someone walking on FOOT! so they just hover in the air going putt putt putt? It's a jetpack for crying out loud. jetpack = fast.

eh so what if they can do a 2d6 assault move. that makes them either faster or slower, depending on what result I get. and if it's all snake-eyes.. bleh.

I was all ready to smack the crap out of armour until I saw that.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:43 pm

Thing is, the fast stuff can be in that position in turn 2 anyway.

Deploy 12" in, move 12" then fleet into terrain.

Not seeing any reason to deploy them using the webway.

Talos, Cronos and Grotes are still viable owing to their resilience.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:00 pm

Mayhem - your points are true from a non-DE sense, but Hellions (and Scourges too if ya really wanna) shouldn't need to save their jetpacks for the assault phase because fleet offers you the same bonus as using a jetpack assault: Fleet says re-roll one or more dice during any run or assault moves.

Thus: move 12" in movement and assault 2D6 re-roll 1 or both dice as needed. You're not nerfed at all bro (from DE jump infantry point of view)

edit: just had a WWP thought: Talos still work if armed with liquifiers and heat lance: deploy the WWP next to cover preferably near an enemy unit or 2. Move the talos into cover when it arrives but preferably in range of the liquis/heat lances: spray em full of shooting gore and then in the following turn act as normal: you'll get the cover saves for any wounds nasty enough to beat the 3+ armour (a lot), and if you're really lucky ya might net yerself a pain token and have the 5+ FnP too which you'll always get (for being T7).

I think the use of WWPs now will be to place them on a flank with good cover options right next to it to offer a turn of solid saves. From what I read, the Mandraks could be WWP Haemi carriers: the infiltrate rule (when I sneaked a peak at GW in lunch today) says if one or more models in the unit has infiltrate. Not sure if this counts as when an IC has joined or not though...

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:01 pm

@dangerous beans wrote:
Mayhem - your points are true from a non-DE sense, but Hellions (and Scourges too if ya really wanna) shouldn't need to save their jetpacks for the assault phase because fleet offers you the same bonus as using a jetpack assault: Fleet says re-roll one or more dice during any run or assault moves.

Thus: move 12" in movement and assault 2D6 re-roll 1 or both dice as needed. You're not nerfed at all bro (from DE jump infantry point of view)

Do you hear that in the distance?
Listen....
Every person who bought a Hellion army when they where sub optimal is laughing right now.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:12 pm

@dangerous beans wrote:
@Allandrel wrote:
or jump out of the portal and spend a turn getting shot up is a big drawback.

Place the WWP near to Terrain, move your beasts straight into it for cover? Then following turn move them their 12" straight at the enemy... Could be one way for WWP 'assault' to be viable?

Do beasts ignore the I1 penalties for assaulting into cover? If so, do they suffer this if assault out / through cover too? Afraid I won't have a BRB for about a week (payday)

Beasts are not slowed by difficult terrain, even when charging.

They have Fleet, which lets the re-roll one or more dice when running or charging.

They have Move Through Cover, which means they automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests. (It also allows units moving through Difficult Terrain in the Movement Phase to roll an extra die for movement just like in 5th edition, but as noted above difficult terrain does not slow Beasts at all.)

Beastmasters do not have any rules that let them strike at normal Initiative when charging through difficult terrain. The assault rules state that the penalty applies if any models in the charging unit had to move through difficult terrain as part of its charge move - there's no exception for units that are not slowed by moving through difficult terrain.

Baron Sathonyx is better with Beastmasters than he was before, since both units move 12" in the movement phase and are not slowed by difficult terrain, and while the Baron is subject to dangerous terrain tests he can re-roll them.

@dangerous beans wrote:
I think the use of WWPs now will be to place them on a flank with good cover options right next to it to offer a turn of solid saves. From what I read, the Mandraks could be WWP Haemi carriers: the infiltrate rule (when I sneaked a peak at GW in lunch today) says if one or more models in the unit has infiltrate. Not sure if this counts as when an IC has joined or not though...

Page 38, "Infiltrate," 6th paragraph:

"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators before deployment."

Merged double post. Cavash.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:47 pm

aw frig, well thats a double downer: beastmaster units assaulting through cover don't get grenade effects (hopefully your target will not be in cover - that way you move the 12" to get out of the cover your beast unit was in and then initiate the assault - but how often will enemy units NOT be in cover?!)

Followed by the anti-mandrake/haemi WWP delivery. Darn - guess that Mandrakes will never be used in my army really sadly: I love the models so much though!

#gutted

edit: just read the Baron part (not sure why I hadn't seen it before: pessimistic syndrome I think!), thats some good news then, but sadly uses a 'precious' HQ slot

edit - PS. (not sure why this didn't post before/can't be deleted: I would try to merge with my post above if it was possible!

Haha Torpedo - yeah they sure are - I'm gutted having been bought x2 boxes of wyches for Xmas 2010 + 1 warriors + raider and 1 jetbike squad and then got me a DE megabox for Xmas 2011, so sadly no hellions in my collection, but inadvertantly over 40 Wych models (only half made up so far though). I think GW did it deliberately to sell more models - what utter [insert expletive names].

Gonna wait and see if any other clarifications occur and will be writing to Gamesworkshop personally as a customer of over 15 years. As the queen would say "one is NOT amused."

Double post merged - Baron T

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:51 pm

Yeah I have 30 painted and based Wyches, luckily when I started playing I bought warriors out the wazzoo so I am good to go.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:04 pm

Yikes bro! Thats a sour taste for the moment hey? At least mine aren't painted yet so thats something I guess! I really hope they see the error of their ways about WWPs... They weren't imba were they?!

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:02 pm

@Grumpy Kwi wrote:
Briefspite - who is that in your avatar? If it is you or a loved one then excuse me but that is kinda how I look right now after seeing the FAQ. I mean no disrespect, just shocked at the moment trying to get a grip.

Grumpy kwi your avatar makes me think of Mat Ward standing over the DE codex brandishing the mighty 6th ed nerf bat! We all know this happened at some stage! Very Happy

I don't have the book yet but it sounds like it's back to venom/lance/blaster spam with some beasts or maybe hellions. Not happy!

I don't know if my Grotes and wracks will be seeing much action. I used to love 4++ cover and 4+ FNP on big T4-5 units.

Could someone please tell me if an allied farseer can join a squad in a raider?

Also how are reavers alot better now?

Thanx!

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:27 pm

Hum yeah I'll second that. Lower cover saves and nerfed Fnp does nothing to help reavers surely?

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PostSubject: Re: 6th edition FAQ's now posted online - August 7, nothing to see (*false alarm*)   Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:32 pm

I originally bought, built and planned on 3 Cronos arriving mid table via WWP. Is this now a totally crapped out plan or do they need to be loaded up with shooty upgrades to be effective?

Admittedly I did not plan this out of any serious tactical advantage but because i thought it would look really cool.
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