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 How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Thu Jun 28 2012, 13:57

I've the rulebook, read it and i'm trying to understand what to change in my army to make it still viable competitively (albeit a bit nerfed sadly).

Wyches aren't viable anymore with the nerf to FnP and the snap fire rule.
Wracks aren't viable with the nerf to FnP and FC (no more +1I) and the snap fire rule.
Incubi aren't viable with the nerf to power weapons (AP3), if they fight an IC with 2+ armor they are toast.
Melee Archons, Succubus and Vect aren't viable for the same reasons.

That leaves us with:
Full shooting lists. Archon with blaster and nothing more. Jetbikes (stronger now) and scourges (also stronger).
The baron and the duke are both viable, while every other SC can be trashed.
WWP mandrakes can be better than any other wwp list.
The court of the archon somewhat gained something because of the medusae, the only mean for an archon to pray for an AP1-2

So i think we have 3 semi-viable lists right now:
Baron and hellion spam with shooting support
Venom spam without anything melee
Wwp lists with Grots, Mandrakes and Taloi

What do you think?
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RocketRollRebel
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Thu Jun 28 2012, 14:57

I'm thinking the Baron and hellions are still going to be awesome in 6th as well. I'm glad too because I've been rolling him and a unit of 15 for almost the past year and loving it. Also with you on the Jetbikes being even better but I disagree with you on wyches and I think they still are going to be good. I think they might be able to get into combat easier which is never a bad thing for them and since they arent prone to overkill much, they will be safe from shooting while in cc for a turn or two at a time.

My biggest concern is from something I read recently today on BoLS (assuming we've all seen the " ask a guy with a rule book" thread thats been running since yesterday) is that you will no longer be able to assault the turn that you come in and also only allows a certain portion of your army to be held in reserve? This would really make me rethink my plans of shifting to a web way portal army in 6th.

Just my two cents Smile
Also first post! looking forward to checking this out more. Looks like a good forum you guys have here. Cheers!
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Thu Jun 28 2012, 15:02

I'm the one with the rulebook Razz
Those two rules you mentioned are real sadly.
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Grumpy Kwi
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Thu Jun 28 2012, 15:12

I am not liking how this thread is going - you are asking us about tactics on 6th ed. but you are the one with the rule book?



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RocketRollRebel
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Thu Jun 28 2012, 15:13

haha oh awesome! Yeah that does really bite. I've been doing a mixed up list and recently incorporated a wwp into it and was really impressed with how well it worked and was looking forward to using it more in the future but now... argh! So now I'm really feeling back to square one on the question of "how do i get my army around the board in 6th edition?"! This has pushed me harder toward the idea of adding a jet bike farseer and some guardian jet bike friends into my list.
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Thu Jun 28 2012, 15:20

Grumpy Kwi wrote:
I am not liking how this thread is going - you are asking us about tactics on 6th ed. but you are the one with the rule book?



I'm just having an headstart and by now you should have almost the same insight on the rulebook as me.
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Levitas
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Thu Jun 28 2012, 15:40

I think i'm going shooty. I have 40 wyches so they may get head swaps and splinter rifles to become Kablite girls! Its rough for them.

I'll be bringing in a hefty slice of Eldar (as I'm starting them anyway). Pathfinders, Avengers, Warwalkers and a Farseer. Then on the noir side there will be Warriors, Reavers, Ravagers and the Duke. Rough ideas here, and not sure how my Trueborn will be armed or if they will see action. Scatter lasers will rip through Rhinos and Ravagers will handle the heavier stuff, so not site I need Blasterborn.

I may dabble with beasts, but not being able to assault out of reserves doesn't make them great either.

So yeah, early prediction is a shift to shooting with ICs buffing them (Duke and Farseer) and i'm fine with that, DE have the flexibility to shift tactics.

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Evil Space Elves
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Thu Jun 28 2012, 15:44

Ereshkigal wrote:
Grumpy Kwi wrote:
I am not liking how this thread is going - you are asking us about tactics on 6th ed. but you are the one with the rule book?



I'm just having an headstart and by now you should have almost the same insight on the rulebook as me.
...because we only have your summary? This is a bit premature. We'll all be with you in about two days, perhaps even more once we've all played a game or two.

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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Thu Jun 28 2012, 15:54

Evil Space Elves wrote:
This is a bit premature. We'll all be with you in about two days, perhaps even more once we've all played a game or two.

Also, let's not forget that FAQs are not out yet. Webway portals may be given an exception to "no assaulting out of reserve," for example.
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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Thu Jun 28 2012, 16:38

The half of squads in reserves hurts though... hurts bad

My current WWP starts with 2x 3 wracks, 1 haemun, 1 raider on the field... and 9 units in reserve... >XP

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RocketRollRebel
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Thu Jun 28 2012, 18:33

Ruke wrote:
The half of squads in reserves hurts though... hurts bad

My current WWP starts with 2x 3 wracks, 1 haemun, 1 raider on the field... and 9 units in reserve... >XP

yeeeeahhh...not looking good for that anymore... I'm really hoping that there is some kind of FAQ on WWP because I just cant see the point in all that effort and risk just to have your dudes come out and get shot in the face.

I really dont understand this change. Outflanking units were by no means OP and were balanced out well by the fact that you cant consolidate into new combats. But alas...

I'm not sure where I'm going to go with my army now. I know that hellions and the baron are still going to be great as are jet bikes but I'm still looking forward to snagging up slaves in this new edition.
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Thu Jun 28 2012, 18:41

Since we need units outside vehicles to hold objectives, bringing wracks or something else that can survive getting shot at to hold something might be good. Generally taking fliers and lots of shooty stuff seems to be the way to go. Will probably use an allied Farseer (maybe on a bike. Still not sure what unit to stick him into), 2 flyers and some jetbikes, with Venomspam. For a HQ, eighter a cheap Haemy or the Duke (he can actually do some damage to 2+ save with his venom blades).

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Ben_S
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Thu Jun 28 2012, 18:56

Well, I've been following the rumours and confirmed rules changes but still I think the answer to the question has to be 'not at all yet'. No doubt 6th will involve changes in play style, but with the rule book not yet out and presumably no one having played the new rules, it's far too early for things to have changed. This question would make far more sense in a year's time, once people (both us and opponents) have had time to adjust and tinker with lists.

I think it's hyperbolic to say that Wyches and Wracks aren't viable though - partly for the reason just given (can you really be sure until you've tried it? Wyches with HWGs should be able to reliably strip hull points off tanks) but also because the simple fact that something's not as good as it was doesn't mean it's no longer viable.

I just made a unit of Mandrakes because I had an idea how I could use them (in 5th) and wanted to try it out. It sounds like the infiltrating Haemonculus with WWP will make them even more useful still, but that's not to say they weren't viable before. Conversely, Wyches may be more fragile now, but they always were anyway. Once in combat they'll still have dodge and a FNP that works against power weapons.
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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Thu Jun 28 2012, 20:08

Ben_S wrote:
Well, I've been following the rumours and confirmed rules changes but still I think the answer to the question has to be 'not at all yet'.

Agreed.

Quote :
Conversely, Wyches may be more fragile now, but they always were anyway. Once in combat they'll still have dodge and a FNP that works against power weapons.

Thing is, with Power Weapons at AP3 we would get the FNP roll even if the AP restriction was still there. And most of the AP1-2 weapons will still negate FNP due to being Strength 6+. For non-Coven DE, the FNP change will be a straight-up nerf. Not a big one, since FNP is not a core mechanic for these units, but a nerf all the same.

Coven units and FNP Space Marines/Orks/other T4 units, OTOH, will be getting FNP rolls against plasma weapons, and Grotesques against everything short of Demolisher cannons and Wraithlords. I think it's a fair trade-off for these units, which start with FNP and so are much more reliant on it.
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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Thu Jun 28 2012, 20:14

This is an interesting thread which will spark lots of conversation, however I will be closing it until the book and FAQ are out so that everyone will have their own mind made up; the FAQ will make everything extremely clearer.

TL;DR = Great idea, give it two days...

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stealthy327
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Tue Jul 03 2012, 06:18

Played a couple games today and sadly wyches are pretty useless in CC now (they are awesome against vehicles though) I managed to take out a monolith with haywire grenades on the charge....My hellions weren't as bad being able to shoot 2 shots before the charge then receiving the hammer of wrath power. Just make sure they are in cover for the snapshots.

debating swapping out wyches for kabalite troops and some more reavers. Reavers are pretty awesome now with the +1 to jink and don't have to role for terrain.

Scourges are the crap with haywire blasters.

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Enfernux
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Tue Jul 03 2012, 06:58

Since 6th messed up my lists and play stile as i read all these new rules and feal a great deal of sadness for my wyches, i will sadly have to divert to our..."enlightened"...kin(??)
or i will have to order bits and make my ladies shoot instead of hurt in cc.
FF will only be viable in the start of the game, so i think everyone will use nightshields - have a good idea for its visual Smile - we will see more disints on the field, since it is easier to deal with tanks, i will have my incubi stay on my shelf, for they lost the only meaning to me what they had, and that is killing termies, blasterborn will be converted in to cannonborn for all i understand or if they will ever be used again, mandrakes will be seen more often imho, scourges, beasts, jbs will be the best options in our army - jay fast attack slot - but still...if i will play DE again, it will be some time, for i will have to deal with the pain of losing 80% of my lists potential.
Vects a dud for his points now, for he will not ignore termies armor, as are agoniser brides, incu...im just shedding tears now.

The few things i like about 6th: RWJ and VRB flyer rule...but only partly and that covers it Sad
i will stay on this forum, but please understand that i will not be playing that much DE from now on.

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Tue Jul 03 2012, 09:30

My first game against GK was a win, but i stayed the hell away from anything melee. My Archon was equipped with only a blaster for instance... The thing i noticed is we gained a lot more mobility and flexibility (turboing in the shooting phase is a great thing), but we lost some punch in the assault departement (well we lost all our punch). Vehicles go down faster, ours and theirs (i destroyed a venerable psyfleman for the first time in my life!), but venoms oh god... they die like flies.
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Tue Jul 03 2012, 13:17

Blasterborn work exactly the same as before, really. In the 5th, you couldn't shoot if you moved over 6'', while now you can but only at bs1. True, in 5th you could move 12'' and disembark for a suicide attack when you needed to kill a tank bad enough to sacrifice the Blasterborn. However, in 6th you might only be able to disembark after moving 6'', but you can still do you regular movement afterwards. So instead of 12'' movement+disembark+fire, it's now 6'' movement+6'' movement+fire, You lose 3 inches from the disembark siatance, but you can now premeasure to make sure you are in range before disembarking.

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Tue Jul 03 2012, 18:39

So, this may be a silly question, but... can you assault OUT of a vehicle? Does it state anywhere in the rules that you cannot launch an assault if the unit is in the vehicle? If not, then what you can do is move your raider up to about 6-8", shoot with your wyches in the shooting phase, and declare your assault in the assault phase. You wont lose any wyches to overwatch unless your ship goes the way of the Hindenburg, and you can charge after your raider takes the overwatch fire...

Seems pretty piratical to me...

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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Tue Jul 03 2012, 21:27

pg79 Units can disembark up to 6" away from the vehicle. they are allowed to run or shoot but not assult

pg82 Open-Topped Transports are Assault Vehicles
pg33 Passengers may assault after they have disembarked even on a turn the Vehicle was destroyed

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dangerous beans
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Wed Jul 04 2012, 17:21

I'm not going to pass judgement on this thread until I have a few games under my belt - I certainly won't be making such statements about "Unit A" is obsolete. I think every unit will still have its place - even competitively, however how situational and how the meta turns out is what will determine this.

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Freelancer411
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Wed Jul 04 2012, 22:32

dangerous beans wrote:
I'm not going to pass judgement on this thread until I have a few games under my belt - I certainly won't be making such statements about "Unit A" is obsolete. I think every unit will still have its place - even competitively, however how situational and how the meta turns out is what will determine this.

Its already determined the second those rules were released that some units dont have a place caue theyll get shot off the table before they can do there intended job. Tell me i'm wrong......after you play a few games just like you said you will see the complete lack of sense 6th makes for dark eldar.


Double post merged, content deleted as it was just a repost from a thread locked for trolling - Baton T
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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Wed Jul 04 2012, 22:41

The rule changes don't just apply to us. They have effected every army differently and made them adapt their play style. After all, adaptation's not a bad thing, it just means that some units may be better suited now to other roles, but I wouldn't dismiss any unit completly.

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PostSubject: Re: How the 6th edition changed our playstyle?    Wed Jul 04 2012, 22:43

so we have 10 unite types that bairly are worth it. Spot on for my though of geting nerfed exactly, except for the RJB, and i dont see the hellions in your description. They have their pros, but also some heavy cons.

Cav, it hasnt affected the marines all that much, for they can withstand most of the overwatch, have good armor and overally good stats.

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