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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 21:26

Yes, you can't assault when you arrive from reserves. And you can only throw 1 granade per squad in the shooting phase.
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Plague
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 21:29

Quote :
also, flyers can move at "zoom" speed and "hover" speed

zooming flyers can shoot up to four weapons at full BS if they move at combat/cruising speed. this is at ground targets

shots shot at skimmers must be "snap shot" which are hit on 6s unless you have the "skyfire" special rule

"skyfire": normal BS when shooting skimmers and flying MCs and skimmers snap shots against all other targets.[/code]

I found this on another site where someone said they had a book. Is this accurate that shooting at skimmers hit only on 6s? /prayingtokhaine

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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 21:36

@Arrex wrote:
Of all the things to nerd rage about, [i]losing a little assault range off the most mobile force in the game is the least worthy of concern.
Sorry about nitpicking your replies, but this one made me laugh. The "most mobile force in the game" is now just as fast (when assaults are concerned) as a bunch of terminators in a land raider. In fifth, our transports could move 24" flat out (not counting sails), versus 18" on fast vehicles and 12" on normal vehicles. In sixth, that's 30"/24"/18", so relatively we lose there as well. A lot of races now have access to flyers and flyer transports. These move 18" combat speed, 36" cruising speed, faster than our skimmers. So I guess "most mobile force in the game" needs some reevaluation.
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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 21:38

@Ereshkigal wrote:
Yes, you can't assault when you arrive from reserves. And you can only throw 1 granade per squad in the shooting phase.
RIP Webway Portal assaults. And RIP DE assault in general, I guess. If you play anything other than Raider/Venom spam, better pray for a good FAQ.
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KheraKhera
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 21:46

@Mandor wrote:
@Arrex wrote:
Of all the things to nerd rage about, [i]losing a little assault range off the most mobile force in the game is the least worthy of concern.
Sorry about nitpicking your replies, but this one made me laugh. The "most mobile force in the game" is now just as fast (when assaults are concerned) as a bunch of terminators in a land raider. In fifth, our transports could move 24" flat out (not counting sails), versus 18" on fast vehicles and 12" on normal vehicles. In sixth, that's 30"/24"/18", so relatively we lose there as well. A lot of races now have access to flyers and flyer transports. These move 18" combat speed, 36" cruising speed, faster than our skimmers. So I guess "most mobile force in the game" needs some reevaluation.

I'll just second Mandor in the doom and gloom here. It is exactly because we are(or were) the "most mobile force in the game", that this doom/gloom has came about, we're now no different from, as Mandor said, a terminator squad on a land raider...

And @Arrex, isn't that telling a fellow DE who prefers assault to suck it a tad cold? You do know you're not defending "the honour" of the DE, but rather "the honour" of GW? For the record, I'm building a hybrid list, so wyches nerf don't actually hit me that hard, but I still wouldn't look at a fellow DE player who plays wych cult to suck it because they're inferior or something...

[backseatMod] But I digress, we shouldn't doom and gloom up(down?) Ereshkigal's thread, keep it clean with Q&A and leave the opinions to the rumours and DE thread. Smile [/backseatMod]
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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 23:12

[quote="Mandor"]
@Arrex wrote:

Sorry about nitpicking your replies, but this one made me laugh. The "most mobile force in the game" is now just as fast (when assaults are concerned) as a bunch of terminators in a land raider.

Wrong. I can't fly my Landraider Crusader over buildings, I can't opt to have my Landraider move 30 inches in a turn, and I have to make terrain tests. You know what's laughable, it's pretending a Landraider is as mobile as a Raider. (Nor can I put my entire army in Landraiders and have them faintly resemble a competitive list.) You are taking two completely different units totally out of context and comparing them. Landraiders have NOTHING in common with Raiders. Also, if I spend close to 300 points on a single model, I damn well expect it to have advantages like "being able to give my Terminators the assault range of Dark Eldar infantry provided I can find a clean 12 inch lane to drive down with an enemy conveniently lined up at the other end".

Same with the mobility, name a single army in the game that can and does put all of it's infantry in fast skimmer transports? I'm waiting, tell me about a single army that can literally flood the field with skimmers mounting anti-tank and anti-infantry weapons at around 60 points a model? It's pretty rare to find an army that literally contains nothing but skimmer mounted infantry, beasts, and jump troops, unless you're playing against Dark Eldar. Even Blood Angel jumper lists can't move as fast as DE.
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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 23:19

@Levitas wrote:
We cant change the rules. So how do you get around them and still use Wyches?

Lets consider webway portals, sky shield landing pads, Eldar (psychic) allies, and revised reserves for starters. So the Raider rush doesn't work and wyches will get shot, just means you have to come up with a new delivery tactic and list.

Maybe there is a way to prevent the unit from overwatch shooting? (Eldar Psykers)
Maybe we can pin point their arrival via web way portal.
Maybe we can get acurate reserves pretty much when we want them (Sky Shield, Eldar psykers)
Maybe night fight ensures we dont need to worry as much about loosing raiders early

I'm just thinking out loud. But if you see that something isnt working anymore, then just look for another way.

Right there with you. I have 40 wyches that I really want to paint, and want to add Hekatrix Bloodbrides and Wracks to my collection. I'd much rather find a way to still make use of them than put them up on the shelf.
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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 23:29

@Arrex wrote:
Landraiders have NOTHING in common with Raiders.

NO!

WRONG!

FALSE!

...

They both have "Raider" in their name...

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IASGATG
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 23:34

@Arrex wrote:
Wrong. I can't fly my Landraider Crusader over buildings,
Missing the point. The point is the combination factors of the transport + the infantry to make assault happen. a LR doesn't have to hide behind a building to make sure it can get to target, it can just drive forwards and deflect all in coming fire.

@Arrex wrote:
I can't opt to have my Landraider move 30 inches in a turn, and I have to make terrain tests.
This is true, however you don't really need to move 30" considering you only need two turns of movement to get your payload to target, and in the first turn you're able to shoot all your guns. Smile

@Arrex wrote:
You know what's laughable, it's pretending a Landraider is as mobile as a Raider. (Nor can I put my entire army in Landraiders and have them faintly resemble a competitive list.)
I'd agree that would be silly, considering the fact that a LR is more powerful, more durable and able to carry more models, for the trade off of not being able to fly.

@Arrex wrote:
Also, if I spend close to 300 points on a single model, I damn well expect it to have advantages like "being able to give my Terminators the assault range of Dark Eldar infantry provided I can find a clean 12 inch lane to drive down with an enemy conveniently lined up at the other end".
Yes, spending that many points on a model that doesn't do it's job would be very silly (Incubi, Mandrakes, Beasts), however it does do its job, and does it very well. Those extra 200 points went into the 14AV, the fact it can shoot all its guns and the fact it has 6 times as many guns.

@Arrex wrote:
Same with the mobility, name a single army in the game that can and does put all of it's infantry in fast skimmer transports? I'm waiting, tell me about a single army that can literally flood the field with skimmers mounting anti-tank and anti-infantry weapons at around 60 points a model?
Space Marines? Have you not ever played against a drop-pod list? It's pretty mobile, with its ability to arrive anywhere they want with more or less no draw backs. Also armed with anti-infantry and anti-tank weapons. Not played against Stormravens, with the same firepower as a Ravager, carrying a raider full of units, and a walker, whilst having heavy armor.

@Arrex wrote:
It's pretty rare to find an army that literally contains nothing but skimmer mounted infantry, beasts, and jump troops, unless you're playing against Dark Eldar. Even Blood Angel jumper lists can't move as fast as DE.
Yes, that's how Dark Eldar works, mobility. The point that's being address here is that our key, unique and fundamental feature is being compromised. Whilst it may have been too strong, the fact that it is now on par with the slowest, heaviest infantry that SM has, is a little strange to say the least.
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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 23:38

IASGAGT wrote:
Missing the point. The point is the combination factors of the transport + the infantry to make assault happen. a LR doesn't have to hide behind a building to make sure it can get to target, it can just drive forwards and deflect all in coming fire.

Not anymore... Hull Points FTW!

------------------------------------------

Got a question Ereshkigal - Does it address the use of pistols in close combat?

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IASGATG
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 23:40

@Ruke wrote:
Not anymore... Hull Points FTW!
AV14 against anything but lance's on turn 1 is still pretty damn strong, no?
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Sendreavus
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 23:45

@IASGATG wrote:
@Ruke wrote:
Not anymore... Hull Points FTW!
AV14 against anything but lance's on turn 1 is still pretty damn strong, no?

or a bunch of scourges with HW blasters Very Happy (Depending on deployment of course)
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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 23:46

maybe... but i dont care about whether or not other armies can take down a LR... only whether or not I can.

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MurderingBastard
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 23:47

My WWP portal lists will be fine. Now that ICs can attach to infiltrating squads, Mandrakes have a point. And out of that portal? Bad ass jetbikes, scourges, trueborn, allied fire dragons, allied storm guardians with fusion guns, etc.

What's this? Free jink saves on my skimmers that get better with Night Fighting?

Widespread AP2 guns being better than average in the tankbusting department and still the best way to kill Terminators as DE?

You can *throw* Haywire grenades now?

I can have an allied farseer for psychic defense and buffs?

Beasts ignore difficult terrain (no need for grenades...) and move 12" now?

Hellions, as jump infantry, get free I10 attack when charging?

I can regroup as long as I have 25% or more of unit?

DE are getting MUCH better. The loss of a few inches on the charge, by wyches of all things...

BRIGHT SIDE, PEOPLE, BRIGHT SIDE. We may yet get some fun stuff out of the FAQ...

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 23:50

Shooty DE are good. Assault DE or mixed DE are screwed big time.

Jetbikes are the way imho.
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Thu Jun 28 2012, 00:11

yup , may as well bin any and all assault elements of your army, except maybe beasts (which GW priced into the stratosphere) and a farseer is going to be almost mandatory ....

My armies are quite shooty (DE after all) but I always try and use assault elements , shoot shoot hide a shoot some more is going to get dull fast, whats the point in our supposed mobility advantage if we are reduced to a floating gunline army ? (I pray this does not turn out to be the case , but I have the fear coz thats how it looks)

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Thu Jun 28 2012, 00:12

TL;DR, people argue whether or not Dark Eldar are getting buffed or nerfed in a game edition they don't even own yet.

Look folks, game designers aren't going to construct a main rulebook just to screw over certain armies while they heap boons on their pet favorites. (That's the codex writer's job) The core rules of each edition usually try to combat the problems of a previous edition. In 3rd edition, it was the fact assaults were ridiculously overpowered, and a single unit of Khorne Berzerkers back in your lines could spell disaster for your whole army. (Lemme just roll 2D6 and charge straight into the next unit of Guardsmen) Games then were about Rhino Rushing. 3.5 edition introduced an ad hoc "fix" for assaults in the form of a prototype rule set to nerf them back into a semblance of game balance. (I playtested it, where do you think the snap fire for the new ruleset came from?) 4th edition had assaults tamed enough that static gunlines could take over, since you were no longer in so much danger of leapfrogging Berzerkers bouncing through your lines killing all your Guardsmen. Games became more static, especially since vehicles went from necessary evil to waste of points. (Lemme just roll on this table, AND IT EXPLODES) 5th edition saw the rise of mechanized forces as the revised damage charts and cover saves made vehicles much more survivable in general. Transports become very popular since no one cares if you glancing hit a Rhino so long as it can trundle forward and claim the midfield.

So sixth edition is going to be about trying to rebalance some things that are out of whack, like vehicles. More specifically, heavy tanks are going to be more useful since they won't spend the game stunned and shaken, light transports will be focused on actually DELIVERING infantry somewhere, instead of being mobile bunkers, and the randomness of trying to kill tanks will be eased somewhat.

What this means for Dark Eldar is about the same as it means for everyone else: Heavy tank on tank warfare might just become more common, since Predator Annihlators and Ravagers are going to spend less time being stunned/shaken and more time firing at enemy tanks. Light transports without guns are going to be less of a priority, since you will need some foot infantry to claim home objectives. Also, this means you don't have to spend half the game opening the tin cans, since infantry are going to be willing bailing out to contest objectives. There might just be more need for anti-infantry firepower. So while this may effect Dark Eldar in specific ways, expect all armies to adapt to a new general trend.
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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Thu Jun 28 2012, 00:13

Ereshkigal, do roads still have any effect on vehicle movement?

Regarding the difference between Wyches assaulting from a DE Raider and Terminators assaulting from a Land Raider:

5th Edition: the average difference is 3" due to Wyches running. That's it.

Under 6th, the re-rolled assault dice puts them an average of 1" over the Terminators, and in exchange for this slight reduction in ground covered they get a MUCH more reliable charge roll. Especially because they can keep a high die and just re-roll the low die.
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Thu Jun 28 2012, 00:17

@MurderingBastard wrote:

BRIGHT SIDE, PEOPLE, BRIGHT SIDE. We may yet get some fun stuff out of the FAQ...

+1.

Seriously, lets get back to the topic at hand. Ereshkigal, does Move throu cover also ignore the "you get Ini1 without grenades" thing? That would be pretty, as Mandraks wouldn't need grenades.

and! when if 2 units assault one unit. this one unit can then "snap shoot" one of the assaulting one. can it choose or must it shoot the nearest/first to declair/etc?

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Thu Jun 28 2012, 00:36

Erishkigal, what role do pistols play in close combat?

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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Thu Jun 28 2012, 00:47

Can units arriving from reserve (not via DS, just from regular reserve) assault? some guys mentioned they cannot now, unless they have Outflank or Heroic Intervention.
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NiteOwl
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Thu Jun 28 2012, 01:17

Our talosi have ''move through cover'' and in 5th MC had that too. So what are the changes to MC?

Well basically, what does MC now?

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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Thu Jun 28 2012, 01:29

Big props to Esherkigal for opening this thread and attempting to deal with everyone's pent-up curiosity.

A gentle reminder that this is a Q&A thread for everyone's benefit, and that we should be looking ahead positively and waiting until we have given everything a fair shake in practice before we start to react otherwise.

And please keep the personal comments and 'tone' out of it.



And now my first question - on Dakka, someone posted that the Reserves Rule now says that "Apart from units that MUST start in reserve (such as drop pods / daemons) You can only keep HALF your army in reserve. " Can this be confirmed, please?

I would like that as I was getting tired of people reserving everything against my spikey shooters.

Thank you.
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Thu Jun 28 2012, 08:46

Yes i confirm this. Half of your squads it says (not points so), with the exclusion of the squads that MUST go into reserve (flying units for example).
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Thu Jun 28 2012, 09:38

Thank you.
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