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Cavash
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 15:22

This is a useful thread, and I understand that you may see things that you need to reply to just after you posted, but please use the edit function in stead of double posting, please use the edit button.
Cheers, Cavash.

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Mandor
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 15:58

@emperor90 wrote:
@Mandor wrote:
@emperor90 wrote:
can i ask you something more? How do the beast/cavalry works out now?

Are they good or screwed?
Beasts actually win this time around...
5th: 6" movement + d6 fleet + 12 inch assault, resulting in 6+d6 when moving normally, 18+d6 when assaulting
6th: 12" movement + [d6 run OR 2d6 assault] with reroll, resulting in 12 + d6 movement, 12 + 2d6 when assaulting.

They also ignore difficult terrain now.

thanks, do this rules apply also to cavalry units?
From what I've heared they also apply to cavalry units, but they have to check for dangerous terrain.
Source: http://natfka.blogspot.nl/2012/06/6th-edition-q-and.html
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 17:52

Does going into Overwatch have any special requirements (for example, not shooting in the Shooting phase) or do units automatically get an Overwatch volley at an assaulting unit?

When using Fleet to re-roll charge dice, do you have to re-roll all the dice or can you choose to re-roll only some of them? For example, if you roll a 1 and a 6 for a total of 7, can you re-roll just the 1 or do you have to re-roll both?

What are the different power weapon types, and what are the guidelines for choosing which a unit is armed with?
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 18:06

Overwatch is a simple reaction to the charge. You don't have to do anything, if you get charged you shoot against the charger at BS1, but can't use blast weapons. Flamers do d3 auto hits.

Fleet allows you to reroll ONE OR MORE dices, you choose which ones (so in charge you can either reroll one or two dices. In charge through cover you can even choose to reroll 3 dices).

About the power weapons there are:
Power swords : ap3
Power axes: ap2 and ini 1
Power maul: ap4 and +2str
Power lance: ap4 or ap3 str+1 on charge

If a power weapon has its special rule (agonisers, klaives and so on) has the unusual power weapon rule, and it is vp3 with the extra rules. That makes our power weapons all ap3.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 18:23

does overwatch allow you to rapid fire or is it 1 shot only (excepting template weapons)

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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 18:51

@Ereshkigal wrote:

About the power weapons there are:
Power swords : ap3
Power axes: ap2 and ini 1 and +1Str
Power maul: ap4 and +2str
Power lance: ap4 or ap3 str+1 on charge

you forgot the +1S of the axe. Interesting to read is that also Helberds count as axes, well it's the way with force weapons, so i guess it's the same with regular PW. So Helberds beeing Ini 1 so no GK with Ini6 and the Helberd/Axe is closer to the Klaivar then the reg. PW is.

So how does the picking of casualties in CC work?

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 19:02

No, halberds have special rules (+2i) so it's unusual force weapon for them.
Casualties is too long to explain here, so i think you'll have to wait till saturday Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 19:15

@Ereshkigal wrote:
No, halberds have special rules (+2i) so it's unusual force weapon for them.
Casualties is too long to explain here, so i think you'll have to wait till saturday Razz

Right they have their special rule in the codex right? but the new Rulebook seems change that. please check the part i marked out in this pic:


reguarding casualties, well then i guess i'll have to wait.
any other nice changes for us?

sláinte ;-)

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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 19:26

You should read the paragraph below. If they have their own rules, they are unusual force weapon.

2 Nice changes for us:
1 - 6 missions, only 1 with Kill Points.
2 - Every mission has night fight at 4+
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 19:28

my problem with how they did casualties is that it will slow down the game SO MUCH!!!! it seems also stupid imho... why make everything else faster, only to slow everything down?


Edit: Irish: i think that means how the model looks, so if it looks like a power axe, its I1 but +1 S, if its a power maul, it gets its bonus. So if the model looks like a hailberd, that is its stats

GK hailberds are +2 I, meaning they are different statline, so are unusual.
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 19:31

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
my problem with how they did casualties is that it will slow down the game SO MUCH!!!! it seems also stupid imho... why make everything else faster, only to slow everything down?
With all the random stuff, a whole new vehicle class requiring new weapons, wound allocation by model, introducing a new shooting phase, I hardly think the game will be any faster rule wise. Things will speed up a lot though, because everything (and especially DE) will die much faster.
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 19:42

@Ereshkigal wrote:
You should read the paragraph below. If they have their own rules, they are unusual force weapon.
I did read the paragraph below, but as they where specificly meantioned i guess they will Change to +1S, DS2 and Ini3(Ini1+2Ini) but i guess well need to wait on the FAQ and see that im wrong ;-)

@Ereshkigal wrote:
2 Nice changes for us:
1 - 6 missions, only 1 with Kill Points.
2 - Every mission has night fight at 4+

That sounds great. Especially the night fight. does it go on? i read something about it going away on a 4+ in the next turnes.

@Shadows Revenge: in 5th edition in worst cases you had to throw dices for each and every model seperat(Ork Bosses i look at you) and now you stait away remove casualties, or did i miss something? that part seems faster ;-)
Also premeasuring removes the guessing part, which takes longer, well it takes me longer to guess that to measure.

looking farward to the first games. guess i'll be debating quite some stuff on this board in the month do come XD

Great people here!

sláinte

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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 19:50

@Crazy_Irish wrote:
@Shadows Revenge: in 5th edition in worst cases you had to throw dices for each and every model seperat(Ork Bosses i look at you) and now you stait away remove casualties, or did i miss something? that part seems faster ;-)
Also premeasuring removes the guessing part, which takes longer, well it takes me longer to guess that to measure.
And now, you have to take saves one by one for each different model standing first in line, until he fails one (or more, depending on wounds). So worst case scenario, you have a character like Draigo standing in front, with eternal warrior, given FnP. So for each wound done to his squad, you have to:
1) Decide if you redirect it, rolling 2+.
2) Then if you choose to NOT redirect it, or fail to redirect it, you have to roll your armour/invulnerable save.
3) Then if you fail that save, you have to roll for FnP.
4) Then failing that, you have to remove a wound.
5) Go back to 1, unless you are out of wounds or Draigo dies.

Now, if you DO redirect Draigo's wound, it goes to the next model standing in line. Let's say, for sake of argument, that this is the Paladin Apothecary. So from step 1 above, you have to:
6) Decide if you redirect it, rolling 4+.
7) Then if you choose to NOT redirect it, or fail to redirect it, you have to roll your armour/invulnerable save.
8 ) Then if you fail that save, you have to roll for FnP.
9) Then failing that, the Apothecary takes a wound or dies.
10) Go back to step 1, unless you are out of wounds.

Now, if you DO redirect the Apothecary's wound, it goes to the next model standing in line. Let's say a normal Terminator. So from step 6 above, you have to:
11) Roll your armour/invulnerable save.
12) Then if you fail that save, you have to roll for FnP.
13) Then failing that, the Terminator takes a wound or dies.
14) Go to step 1, unless you are out of wounds.

15) Finally, you are done, feeling exhausted, cursing the new rules with your final breath, right before you collapse on the gaming table, making this all a moot point.


Last edited by Mandor on Wed Jun 27 2012, 20:01; edited 4 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 19:54

Night fight is in place if at the start of the game you roll 4+ and only for the first turn. But if you roll less than 4, you have to roll at the fifth turn. If you roll 4+ you have night fight for the rest of the game. If you roll less, you have to roll again in every other turn, when you roll a 4+ you have night fight for the rest of the game.

Night fight gives +2 cover if you are between 24" and 36" away from the enemy shooting. Or +1 cover if you are between 12" and 24". DE are immune to night fight.
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 20:04

@Ereshkigal wrote:
Night fight is in place if at the start of the game you roll 4+ and only for the first turn. But if you roll less than 4, you have to roll at the fifth turn. If you roll 4+ you have night fight for the rest of the game. If you roll less, you have to roll again in every other turn, when you roll a 4+ you have night fight for the rest of the game.

Night fight gives +2 cover if you are between 24" and 36" away from the enemy shooting. Or +1 cover if you are between 12" and 24". DE are immune to night fight.
Yes, this is pretty good for DE. Don't forget to mention that you can't target anything at all above 36". My only regret is that with the wording on Night Shields, they don't stack with this.
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 20:25

@Mandor wrote:
@1++ wrote:
So Rapid fire doesn't change from 5th then???

How do Warriors in a Raider move and shoot now - also Wyches/Incubi moving and assaulting....???
Already known. You may only disembark if the Raider moves 6" or less. You disembark by moving 6" from any point of the Raider, as it is open-topped. Assault is 2D6 after, may reroll this roll because of fleet. You may NOT run and assault.
Editor: this is a severe nerf for Dark Eldar. Wyches lose 9 minus d6 inches when assaulting from a Raider.

[/i].

:facepalm:

Lemme get this straight, under 5th ed you can move 12, disembark within 2 inches, then fleet D6, and finally charge 6 inches? What's that get you: TWENTY-SIX INCHES MAX. Alright, under new rules, you can move 6 inches, disembark within 6 inches, and then assault 2D6? What's that get you? TWENTY FOUR INCHES MAX. In what bizarre reality does that constitute a "severe nerf"?
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 20:34

@Arrex wrote:
@Mandor wrote:
@1++ wrote:
So Rapid fire doesn't change from 5th then???

How do Warriors in a Raider move and shoot now - also Wyches/Incubi moving and assaulting....???
Already known. You may only disembark if the Raider moves 6" or less. You disembark by moving 6" from any point of the Raider, as it is open-topped. Assault is 2D6 after, may reroll this roll because of fleet. You may NOT run and assault.
Editor: this is a severe nerf for Dark Eldar. Wyches lose 9 minus d6 inches when assaulting from a Raider.

[/i].

:facepalm:

Lemme get this straight, under 5th ed you can move 12, disembark within 2 inches, then fleet D6, and finally charge 6 inches? What's that get you: TWENTY-SIX INCHES MAX. Alright, under new rules, you can move 6 inches, disembark within 6 inches, and then assault 2D6? What's that get you? TWENTY FOUR INCHES MAX. In what bizarre reality does that constitute a "severe nerf"?
Let's try averages.

In fifth: move 12, disembark 3, fleet d6, assault 6: for a total of 21+d6, average: 24.5 inches.
In sixth: move 6, disembark 6, charge 2d6: for a total of 12+2d6, average: 19 inches.

Congratz, we just lost 22.5% charge range.

But wait! That's not all! There's MORE! Your target now gets to shoot your T3Sv6+ models for free! And as an added bonus, you have to remove them from the front! So it's quite possible you lose more than 25% of your squad and you have to remove ANOTHER inch.

Yes, this is a severe nerf.


Last edited by Mandor on Wed Jun 27 2012, 20:36; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 20:36

because the last 12 inches is pure luck at best you can hope for a seven , thats still a gamble even with fleet , its the variance

5th guaranteed 21 inches max 26 , thats a random element of only 5 your average will be 23-24 so with pivot shenanigans a fairly plausable first turn charge if your oppo is not on the ball (often)

6th guaranteed 14 inches max 24 inches , thats a random element of 10" (probably equates to twice the chance of floofing a charge rly) max is 24" and average is 21.

It's a nerf any way you cut it but the glaring problem is that you only need to flub one 2d6 roll to bugger up an important assault , now you are more likely to fail and you have stand and shoot to contend with too , with your nerfed fnp ....

Does that make the Fleet 'drugs' roll more usefull now ?


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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 20:44

Wouldn't it be less useful? Considering that it's a run drug... Unless they FAQ it to apply to charge as well, thought I doubt that.

@Ereshkigal, thanks for doing this. Very Happy Though not everything is good news, still crossing my fingers for the FAQ to save our now-overpriced special CCW. Sad

I, too, second the question about challenges! I know you got work now, so no rush. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 20:55

What about tank shock? Whats in there about it?

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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 20:56

I disagree with you to a certain extent sorrowshard, the best you can hope for is 12", 7 is average but you can re-roll it, which would push the average up, though I can't be bothered to do the maths to say by how much.

The drugs roll is less useful, because it only works on run moves (unless they faq it), and in 6th you can't assault after running (correct me if I'm wrong).

The bonus, is that whilst the enemy can overwatch at you, we can also shoot at them first too. ok, it's hardly going to wipe out the unit you're charging, but every little helps as they say. bounce
TBE

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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 21:03

First of all, maybe I'm old fart that played too much Battletech, but rolling a 7 on 2D6 is the most likely result, followed by 6 and 8. So most of the time, you'll get around 19 inches. Secondly, Dark Eldar had too much charge range to begin with. First turn charges?! Was that really necessary? Most armies don't have fleeting CC troops jumping out of fast transports, IMO, you were spoiled to begin with, especially with most players engaging in shenanigans like jumping Wyches off their shockprows for the maximum possible distance. Of all the things to nerd rage about, losing a little assault range off the most mobile force in the game is the least worthy of concern. If you really needed that excessive threat range to win, you might want to examine your tactics. (Sounds like fly forward/assault/get crumped by castling defenders)

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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 21:05

We cant change the rules. So how do you get around them and still use Wyches?

Lets consider webway portals, sky shield landing pads, Eldar (psychic) allies, and revised reserves for starters. So the Raider rush doesn't work and wyches will get shot, just means you have to come up with a new delivery tactic and list.

Maybe there is a way to prevent the unit from overwatch shooting? (Eldar Psykers)
Maybe we can pin point their arrival via web way portal.
Maybe we can get acurate reserves pretty much when we want them (Sky Shield, Eldar psykers)
Maybe night fight ensures we dont need to worry as much about loosing raiders early

I'm just thinking out loud. But if you see that something isnt working anymore, then just look for another way.

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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 21:12

You use them the same way you always did, simple as that.

Here's how good Dark Eldar players win games and table: They spend the first couple turns maneuvering and concentrating fire on a flank/exposed portion of the enemy army. Once the enemy vehicles start exploding/monstrous creatures fall dead, they close in with torrenting fire from raiders on the unlucky survivors, and THEN you send in Wyches to mop up who ever is still alive. (Wyches also tarpit things you can't handle at the moment) Wyches are not some uber killy closecombat unit; they have a rough time dealing with tac squads. If you wanna kill something in CC, you send in Incubi, and you'll still need to invest time getting into position and blowing up transports.

The only people really effected by losing 26 inches of charge distance are those annoying noobs that try to assault too early.
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Wed Jun 27 2012, 21:16

I'll wait for Ereshkigal's confirmation on this, and also when we get our rulebook(no offense, Ereshkigal), but according to the dakka forums....

Apparently, you can't assault the turn you arrived from reserve, deepstrike or not... Meaning our WWP assault list is pretty much gone. Providing that they don't FAQ in something good for us.

I'm thinking to field 5 wyches with HWG on a venom, and just use them to strip hullpoints... But again, DL has a better threat range of 36"... Do I still want to field the wyches after that? And there is the question whether mech-heavy list would be common or not in 6th ed? I, for one, am kinda tempted to build a jumpsuit spam BA army*...

On the other hand, hellions, beastmasters, grotesque and Talos should be quite good for our assault now? But I wonder whether that's because they got buffed, or because our general assault units got nerfed...

*I just want to feel the love too, you know. Sad
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