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Slave
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 07:48

If the WWP does not allow assaults in the faq, I will just run a second squad of 20 Warriors with Splinter cannons instead of wyches. Razz If they want to make this shooting ed we have the tools to dominate that game too! Bring on 6th, one day to go!

I look at all the potential nerfs to DE but I keep reminding myself that all armies are getting the same nerfs, and eqilibrium is established again. Smile
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 08:15

Shooty DE are not nerfed. Assault DE are useless instead.
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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 08:57

@Ereshkigal wrote:
Shooty DE are not nerfed. Assault DE are useless instead.

Well that remains to be seen, or FAQed ;-) But i guess no need to discuss pros and cons as we seem to agree to disagree XD

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 09:20

@crazy_irish: Why didnt you ask your question about coversaves and snapfire here? Most likeliest place to get an answer. Wink

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Hijallo
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 10:20

i think we could run Beasts as our main assault now. With 12" movement and re-rollable run (and stealth) they are likely to be engaged on second turn, and kill multiwounded Razorwing flocks (or Khimeras w/ inv) isn't easy, comparing to Wyches. And they ignore terrain.
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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 11:17

@tlronin wrote:
@crazy_irish: Why didnt you ask your question about coversaves and snapfire here? Most likeliest place to get an answer. Wink

I guess i forgot in what thread i was in XD

Hijallo: Beast sure got a boost. would be interesting to know if you can choose your snap fire target and if you can get a coversave from when chargeing through cover <-- A question to those with a book ;-)

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Ceddyn
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 12:14

@Ruke wrote:
But the post said "Models with this rule" and the only models with that rule, as it stands now, are jump infantry... so, if a monstrous creature flies OVER a unit, it gets vector strike, but if it charges it gets HoW? Can anyone clear this up?

Flying and Normal monstrous creatures are different entries in the unit types section, both get the special rules in my post above, including Hammer of Wrath.

Flying MC's get vector strike in addition to what a normal one gets.

Vector Strike: When swooping (= mc flight mode) you can hit 1 unengaged unit you moved over with D3+1 AP3 hits with your unmodified strength. Vehicles are hit on side armour. Can also be used against enemy flyers.


If you swoop with a flying MC you can make the vector strike. If you glide (=move as jump MC), you get Hammer of Wrath when you charge, but so does a normal MC. The main advantage is that you can use your jump ability in the movement phase and still have Hammer of Wrath.

Jump infantry can only use it's jump packs once each turn, either in the move or assault phase. Used during move you get 12" movement. When used during assault they get to reroll charge range and get Hammer of Wrath.


I hope this clears things up a bit.
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Ceddyn
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 12:21

@Hanno wrote:
What does the book say about pinning and going to ground?

Is there anything that specifically says a pinned unit can use overwatch?


Pinning seems to work exactly as in 5th. This time they clarified that you only have to take 1 test for each enemy unit that fired.
If you're pinned you still automatically go to ground

Go to ground: +1 cover save as before. The unit cannot move, run or charge. It can only fire snapshots when it wishes to shoot and can fire overwatch.
A charging unit can go to ground when it receives overwatch fire, but that means the carge automatically fails.
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 13:05

Apparently defensive grenades give you stealth now. Taking PLGs on a Warrior unit migt be a good idea, as thye get a 3+ save when in ruins (and it removes attacks from enemies when they charge you, too). A big unit of Warriors might actually work pretty well, especially with duke to give them 3+ poison. Of course they'd still fold in assault (a unit of 20 with 2 splinter cannons would kill maybe 1 Marine in overwatch if you're lucky).

I also just realized that Mandrakes (and our MCs) no longer need grenades. If move through cover makes them ignore the penalties of moving in cover, then logically they should ignore the iniative penalty for charging through cover. So mandrakes will be....Still mostly useless, but a little better than they're now. Maybe their "evil-looking blades" could get an ap value, altough they'd still be uselss against Marines.

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 13:10

Ah, but they're evil looking blades, so perhaps they aren't evil, they just look it? It's all pun that GW has been playing on us!

And as for PGL's on warrior units, damnit, I've just painted my sybarite without one, grr!

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 13:18

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
And as for PGL's on warrior units, damnit, I've just painted my sybarite without one, grr!

I painted 2 without... Crap. Crying or Very sad

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Ceddyn
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 13:27

@Nomic wrote:
Apparently defensive grenades give you stealth now.

Only if your squad is within 8" of the enemy that's shooting it. It also does not work when your squad has gone to ground.

@Nomic wrote:

I also just realized that Mandrakes (and our MCs) no longer need grenades. If move through cover makes them ignore the penalties of moving in cover, then logically they should ignore the iniative penalty for charging through cover.
Move through cover gives you 3d6, pick highest, on difficult terrain rolls. Models with move through cover automatically pass dangerous terrain tests. Mandrakes will still attack at I1 when going through difficult terrain.
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Crazy_Irish
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 13:34

@Ceddyn wrote:
@Nomic wrote:
Apparently defensive grenades give you stealth now.

Only if your squad is within 8" of the enemy that's shooting it. It also does not work when your squad has gone to ground.

Thats great! That means that you can use Coversaves against snap shots while assaulting. good that PGL on wyches only cost as much as 1 wych. that way, you can charge through a ruin and recieve a 3+ coversave against snap shots!

The way to go!

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 13:40

@Ereshkigal

Can you confirm that devensive grenades gives you stealth within 8" of enemies that are shooting?

I would like to have 100% confirmation before dancing my happy Wych dance (which I'll have to invent as I go along).

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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 13:50

I presume the happy wych dance involves pvc thigh length stockings on one leg and thigh high boot on the other, haven't seen any wyches not sporting that particular fashion accessory. In which (wych?) case I'll do my best not to imagine what it looks like!

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 13:52

It's even worse... It's after work. So off comes the armour and skinsuits, on go the fence/fishnets. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 13:59

Promise me it doesn't involve the splits, that's only going to end one way. In the emergency room!

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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 14:05

lol! Maybe we should get back on topic before this spins outta control...

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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 14:07

good idea. Mayde the dodge save should be renamed 'the happy wych dance save'.
Ok I'm done now, serious face back on again. Neutral

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Siticus the Ancient
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 14:19

I only now realized that, didn't occur to me when I read about the defensive grenades yesterday. Indeed, Wyches charging through cover will be the way to use them, since assault is now handled via rolling 2d6 just as before when charging through difficult terrain. Except now it's better, since Fleet allows to reroll those die and we get Stealth from PGL defensive grenades while still hitting first thanks to assault grenades. Welp, who cares about Overwatch now? Wyches certainly don't!

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tlronin
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 14:50

@The_Burning_Eye:

The dance will be done at the soundtrack off: http://www.ebay.nl/itm/lp-DARK-ELDAR-Rude-Solo-Christian-Morgenstern-VG-VG-2001-/400253651515?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item5d30fa0a3b



Okok, straight face Neutral


Wyches and 'Stealth' man, awesome stuff...

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 15:39

Yes but i don't think you can use the wych dodge against the overwatch and the defensive granades gives stealth, which increase the COVER save of a unit (or give 6+ cover if it's in plain sight).
You gain stealth if you are less than 8" from your enemy so summarizing:
1) If you charge with wyches you don't have your dodge against the overwatch. It says on the rules that the overwatch is a normal shoot attack (and if you fail the charge, they still can shot you).
2) If you charge and you are more than 8" away from the enemy, you don't have the stealth rule
3) If you are 8" or less, then you have 6++ cover save.
4) If you are charging through a cover the thing get tricky: if you are inside an area terrain, you get 5+ cover (4+ with grenades), if you are charging through a ruin you get 4+ save (3+ with stealth) ONLY IF at least 25% of the model (not the squad) is obscured from the enemy sight (and you should measure from the eye of each shooter). So it's entirely possible not to get the cover save in the ruins.

All in all, wyches are not that good. They got 4 nerfs: FnP nerf, Overwatch, Fleet, Agoniser. Imho they aren't worth anymore... well for sure they are better than Incubi. Right now i think even the court of the archon is better than the incubi, lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 15:48

Thanks Ereshkigal. My comment about dodge wasn't related to actually being able to use it against overwatch, you can only use that in cc, I just thought happy dance sounded funnier than dodge.

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 15:53

omg... i lost my miniature of the Bloodthirster... :'l and i wanted to try my theory really badly :'l
Instead of wyches, an allied Khorne Greater Daemon, should wreck faces.
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PostSubject: Re: Ask me about 6th   Fri Jun 29 2012, 16:02

well if the overwatch is a normal shooting attack, than you can get a coversave against it, well i guess ;-)

and that would be increased by the stealth rule. no one was thinking of improving an (in combat) Inv save with a coversave bonus ;-)

5 marines 4 normal attacks and 2 PW attacks.
4*3/6*4/6 = 1,3333 normal wounds and 2*3/6*4*6 =0,6666 PW wounds

5th edition: 1,3333*3/6*3/6=0.333325 dead from normal wounds and 0,6666*3/6=0,3333 dead from PW wounds.
thats 0,666625 dead total in 5th

6th edition: 1,3333*3/6*2/6 =0,444433 dead and 0,6666*3/6*4/6= 0,2222 dead from PW wounds
thats 0,666633 dead total in 5th

that is an increase in 0,000008 or 0,0008%. Now that was interesting, but you see where it goes.

the more regular troops you have, the worse it gets compaired to 5th. the more PW the unit has that do not ID you, the better wyches are against them!

I guess you can call that a fun fact ;-)

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