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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Mon Jun 11 2012, 18:06

A chilling set of rumours, none of it good for DE.

Quote :
6th ed - a few morsels
Random Charges are 2D6 pick the highest (unless going through Difficult Terrain where its 3D6 and you drop the highest.) Move through cover I believe adds an extra D6

Vehicles are WS0 if stationary, and WS1 if they move, no matter how far they go.

Vehicles go the same distance in the movement phase (I believe 6" and fire everything regardless if fast or not) but in the shooting phase can make an extra move (apparently some kept forgetting what vehicles moved to fast to fire...

Vehicles cannot contest (unsure if scoring units in transports can

6 Missions and 3 deployment types (2 of the deployments are the same as current, Spearhead & Pitched Battle.)

Troops are the only ones that can score (including of course 'scoring units')

5+ Cover save for most things including ruins.

Allies rules are in, but its meant to be for team games (ie separate force org chart, distrusted ally rules similar to Fantasy)

Percentages are *not* in

Wound Allocation is closest to furthest.

Dueling is similar to challenges in fantasy but contrary to earlier rumors, they don't replace Combat res, just add to sides. A IC can challenge another IC in the same combat even if not in base to base. If the defending IC refuses, he simply cannot attack that turn, if he does he counts as being in b2b and no one else can hurt him apart from the attacking IC. I'm guessing this is to offset the Wound Allocation rules

Preferred Enemy is including shooting and you may reroll wound rolls of a 1 (either shooting or combat)

Rapid Fire weapons may now can shoot at long range while moving. restriction on assaulting after rapid firing remains.

Jump Infantry get a free strike at I10 when they charge into combat

Psychic Power Decks using a dice system similar to Fantasy.

Flyers are in.

FNP drops to 5+ Save.

I'm calling it now - Infantryhammer


Looks like we will be more glass, it remains to be seen if we will be more hammer.
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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Mon Jun 11 2012, 19:10

Didn't someone say preferred enemy on shooting? If that rule holds true, my Black Templars are going to be almost unstoppable till their codex gets updated. (Yeah, lemme see, I'mma gonna fire at you with my tank hunting assault cannons, and I get rerolls) Hell, even Tyranids will see a significant upswing in effectiveness.
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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Mon Jun 11 2012, 22:15

If true...

@Azdrubael wrote:
Random Charges are 2D6 pick the highest (unless going through Difficult Terrain where its 3D6 and you drop the highest.) Move through cover I believe adds an extra D6

With the addition of pre-measuring and "closest dies first" wound allocation, this makes sense. An unreliable charge distance means you want to simply get your models as close as possible, rather than engaging in the kind of constant measuring of everything by eye and board sections/measuring your arm/etc. that people do anyway.

Quote :
Vehicles are WS0 if stationary, and WS1 if they move, no matter how far they go.

First off, as with close combat AP values, I really like the idea of assigning vehicles a WS to be hit rather than specific values. Including "a stationary vehicle has WS 0, and is thus hit automatically" because it puts everything under the WS chart rather than having another set of rules as in earlier editions.

I am desperately, desperately hoping that skimmers get a special rule on this front. In 4th you always needed a 6 to hit a skimmer in assault (unless immobilized). Easily enough done by simply giving skimmers a different WS to be hit if they move.

Quote :
Vehicles go the same distance in the movement phase (I believe 6" and fire everything regardless if fast or not) but in the shooting phase can make an extra move (apparently some kept forgetting what vehicles moved to fast to fire...

I like this. It should make things easier to track, speeding up gameplay. Depending on when the extra move is taken, it may also open up a lot of tactical options for fast vehicles, especially fast transports. Waiting to see how the actual rules work.

Quote :
5+ Cover save for most things including ruins.

Not surprising. It seems to be generally agreed that 5E went too far with 4+ cover saves everywhere. It would also make purchased terrain more significant if you can buy bunkers or fortifications that provide 4+ saves.

Quote :
Allies rules are in, but its meant to be for team games (ie separate force org chart, distrusted ally rules similar to Fantasy)

Very happy to hear this. I was a bit worried about the sort of shenanigans we used to see with the 3E Inquisition books.

Quote :
Wound Allocation is closest to furthest.

I personally think this fixes most wound allocation problems. It completely fixes multi-wound unit shenanigans, for one thing. You can still act to protect valuable models (and having the heavy weapons guy in the back LOOKS appropriate, too) but your point-men with flamers or power fists have to actually expose themselves.

Quote :
Dueling is similar to challenges in fantasy but contrary to earlier rumors, they don't replace Combat res, just add to sides. A IC can challenge another IC in the same combat even if not in base to base. If the defending IC refuses, he simply cannot attack that turn, if he does he counts as being in b2b and no one else can hurt him apart from the attacking IC. I'm guessing this is to offset the Wound Allocation rules

Sound like it. Should be very cool and exciting. If we're lucky, the restriction only goes so far as attacking the ICs in the challenge. I'd like to see someone argue that Wyches wouldn't interfere in a challenge with their shardnets.

Quote :
Preferred Enemy is including shooting and you may reroll wound rolls of a 1 (either shooting or combat)

I like it. Not nearly as powerful as what some have been worrying about, and gives Tyranids a needed boost.

Quote :
Rapid Fire weapons may now can shoot at long range while moving. restriction on assaulting after rapid firing remains.

I heard a sound like a thousand Tau, Imperial, Chaos, Necron, and DE players crying out in joy, while a thousand Ork, Tyranid, and CWE players crying out in anguish.

Eldar Guardians go from worthless to completely worthless.

After briefly celebrating, Tau players look at their models with pulse carbines and curse GW for taking away just as it gives.

Quote :
Psychic Power Decks using a dice system similar to Fantasy.

I still don't get the point in a game where a fourth of the armies available have no psykers, half of those that do have distinct powers of their own that are individually purchased at variable point costs, and half the armies fielded contain no psykers anyway.

Quote :
FNP drops to 5+ Save.

FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU


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Sky Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Mon Jun 11 2012, 23:30

I'm calling it now, this is the edition of the Kabalite Gunboats. 30' threat range with Splinter Rifles? My Sliscus Gunboat has just got so much better.

5+ FNP hurts, a lot. A lot. Lots. Lotssss.

Hellions to get an extra attack on the charge? Not too bad.

Ravager pop up attacks?

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SleepyPillow
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 01:23

Jumpinfantryhammer 40k!

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 03:40

@SleepyPillow wrote:
Jumpinfantryhammer 40k!

Great, as if anyone else still needed an exuse to play Blood Jumper lists. And verily, the cheeseball brigade of red armoured space vampires with rocket packs did go forth, and there was much weeping and gnashing of teeth. :facepalm:
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Archon Farath Mure
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 04:14

Well, hellions and stormboyz are looking very nice if this pans out.

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Ghosttrain23
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 04:41

I feel my wyches will turn to porcelain dolls in the battlefield. Sad

Even so, I cant wait for this new rules. As they will fill some players with overconfidence against armies like DE, and theres nothing better than defeating players like that.haha. Time to shoot some poison!

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 06:15

I fail to see how 5+ cover and FNP and random charge distances promotes the use of infantry. Jumpers and terms sound like they get a boost but really all infantry is easier to kill than ever.

If this is true Tank/shootyhammer is here to stay. Mad
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 07:31

Well it aint boost to infantry, but introducing hull points and 5+ cover really strike down vehicles. Which means list will have to be balanced, otherwise they will crumble against something like our 3 Rav 3 Blasterborn thing.

As for Helions, mates, they will have a serious blow to their survivability. If chainswords will ignore their 5+ armor and FnP reduced to 5+, and even cover reduced to 5+ they will take like 50% more casualties.
All that in trade for +1 atack.
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Nomic
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 10:47

Vehicles having ws 1 seems rather pointless. So when they don't move you hit automatically, and when thye move you hti on 2+? And it seems just strange that our supposedly uber-fast vehicles move at the same speed as a lumbering Russ of Land Raider (of course, GW can't have other armies being better than thier precious Imperium, so of course all xenos should be just as slow but with less armour). Then again, maybe the Aerial Assault rule allows us to make the extra move in the shooting phase and still shoot our weapons? J-S-J Ravagers would be pretty awesome. Cover being dropped to 5+ was expected, but fnp being dropped to 5+ really hurts us, especially as we have several units that rely on fnp as their primary save (all Coven units except Pain Engines). Kabalite gunboat Raides seem quite powerful now, tho, and the vehicle close combat rules combined with hull points would make wytches murder any vehicle they get their haywire grenades on. Also, I think I'll finally have to get some Hellions.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 11:04

Rumour has it that there is a typo in the rumours and that it should be WS10 for moving vehicles.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 11:37

@Azdrubael wrote:
Well it aint boost to infantry, but introducing hull points and 5+ cover really strike down vehicles. Which means list will have to be balanced, otherwise they will crumble against something like our 3 Rav 3 Blasterborn thing.

As for Helions, mates, they will have a serious blow to their survivability. If chainswords will ignore their 5+ armor and FnP reduced to 5+, and even cover reduced to 5+ they will take like 50% more casualties.
All that in trade for +1 atack.

Your right hellions took a big hit just like every other DE unit that relies on cover and FNP to survive outside a transport

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 11:40

I'm going to wait and see what the actual rules look like but if this is just a blatant assault on pretty much every Xenos army out there then my 40k days may be numbered, despite having a massive Blood Angels army.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 14:59

@Painjunky wrote:
@Azdrubael wrote:
Well it aint boost to infantry, but introducing hull points and 5+ cover really strike down vehicles. Which means list will have to be balanced, otherwise they will crumble against something like our 3 Rav 3 Blasterborn thing.

As for Helions, mates, they will have a serious blow to their survivability. If chainswords will ignore their 5+ armor and FnP reduced to 5+, and even cover reduced to 5+ they will take like 50% more casualties.
All that in trade for +1 atack.

Your right hellions took a big hit just like every other DE unit that relies on cover and FNP to survive outside a transport


You do have to remember that Baron has stealth, if it is the same as before, then we will still be rocking a 4+ coversave. So 4+ + 5+ FNP = a 2+ save... not as good as we were rocking, but still respectable
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 15:08

The one says it will be infantryhammer, the other says tankhammer... I guess I will just be waiting what the rules say...

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 15:36

You're not gonna see the disappearance of tanks, since GW has profited immensely from their proliferation. (Hence why I was amused by the hull point hysteria, since it really changes precious little about survivability most of the time) In my experiences running Dark Eldar, they get most of their killing done via massive combined torrenting, so I doubt you'll see much change in their effectiveness. Matter of fact, if these rumors are true, it's a positive swing for DE, since all the competitive lists run transports with Flickerfields and loaded up infantry anyway. (Don't care so much about the loss of a cover save since 5++ anyways) Keep in mind DE's Flickerfield is immune to USR shenanigans and CC modifiers.
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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 16:20

Also, I think the general gist, as stated a year or so ago, is a move towards deadlier combat. Back when I first started playing the game, you had an armor save and the much less common 5++ invulnerable save. (Third edition) Feel no Pain didn't even exist, neither did 3++ Storm Shields.

Now look at the game. You can get units with a 2+/3++ and a 4+ FnP save on top. There's been a dramatic rise in defenses (cover save creep and revised vehicle rules too), without much of an increase in lethality. Back in the day, Plague Marines caused instant death with their rusty little knives, now poison just gives you a 50/50 shot against all units. In sixth edition, it isn't uncommon at all for close combat to grind on for 3-4 turns while Fearless combatants shrug off wounds with invulnerable saves and FnP. Then there's tanks blasting away turn after turn at each other while making cover saves and rolling low dice on the damage chart. I've seen units like Sanguinary Guard or Orc Nobs survive an ENTIRE ARMY shooting at them thanks to universal cover, FnP and invulnerable saves being recklessly heaped on top of units. (What ever happened to the C'Tan phase knife that ignored invulnerables?) Honestly, the game of "Hopeyoufailasave40K" isn't nearly as satisfying as it used to be, and skirmish level games like Warmachine offer deadlier combat with much less random chance involved. So let's hope the new ruleset swings back the other way and gives a game where the toy soldiers actually die when you shoot them with a battlecannon.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 16:26

@Arrex wrote:
So let's hope the new ruleset swings back the other way and gives a game where the toy soldiers actually die when you shoot them with a battlecannon.

As long as it doesn't just become a competition to see who has the most battle cannons.

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 16:27

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Arrex wrote:
So let's hope the new ruleset swings back the other way and gives a game where the toy soldiers actually die when you shoot them with a battlecannon.

As long as it doesn't just become a competition to see who has the most battle cannons.

LOL, true, true....
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 18:00

I don't care if my wyches have a nerf in their FnP save as long as I can assure them that those rhinos will be open in time to assault some marines.

We will see more kabalites in 6th, for sure. Raiders and splinter racks ready... all aboard!

And if Heavy weapons could be fired from moving transports... that would be simply great.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 18:10

@Eldur wrote:
I don't care if my wyches have a nerf in their FnP save as long as I can assure them that those rhinos will be open in time to assault some marines.

Yes. It seems that every time I go to assault, my wyches have to open the can of marines first, which leaves rounds for counter attacks, and losing the charge... Knowing that I can assure that my wyches will be able to charge in and that whatever I'm fighting will already be in the open will be worth the drop in FNP for them...

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Tue Jun 12 2012, 19:21

@Shadows Revenge wrote:

You do have to remember that Baron has stealth, if it is the same as before, then we will still be rocking a 4+ coversave. So 4+ + 5+ FNP = a 2+ save... not as good as we were rocking, but still respectable

Just wanted to say, that it´s not that good. Still not bad, but a hard kick in the hellion ass. Wink
4+ cover and 5+ FNP = 3+
(1/2 + (1/2*1/3)) = 4/6 = 2/3 = 3+

Michael

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Arrex
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 13 2012, 00:37

@Demagoge wrote:
@Shadows Revenge wrote:

You do have to remember that Baron has stealth, if it is the same as before, then we will still be rocking a 4+ coversave. So 4+ + 5+ FNP = a 2+ save... not as good as we were rocking, but still respectable

Just wanted to say, that it´s not that good. Still not bad, but a hard kick in the hellion ass. Wink
4+ cover and 5+ FNP = 3+
(1/2 + (1/2*1/3)) = 4/6 = 2/3 = 3+

Michael

The sword cuts both ways. Other armies besides Dark Eldar commonly use FnP; it takes them down a peg too. I'd honestly celebrate any such changes, since the real advantage of Dark Eldar in experienced hands is using the mobility to pounce on one flank and spray things with combined torrenting from angles that prevent return fire. Lower cover saves and less FnP is awesome if you're in the business of firing Dark Lances and splinter rifles at everything.

Now imagine if you're running a slower army against DE on a proper game board. (Good terrain setup, not the Great Plains or Cityfight) Now you can't just rely on cover anymore AND you've got an enemy army that's likely to abuse any LOS blocking obstacles to apply force to one exposed flank. Trust me, nerfing cover saves and FnP is a huge bonus for a highly mobile army that relies on overwhelming firepower. (Don't listen to the nonsense, DE are first and foremost a shooting army, and one of the best at the job to boot)
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 13 2012, 06:36

if deep strike assault is true my daemons will kick any players ass

Hull points = HAYWIRE TIME! however our vehicles can die to boltguns!?!?! No

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