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dominus nox
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 15:59

So we don't put those characters into combats they can't win with the weapons they have. To be honest the meta looks to be shifting from Mech to elite 2+ armies, Dark Lances deal with both fairly well. I think competitively we'll be fine, it will require re jigging of what units work well in what situations but we'll still be up there in terms of power.

We are not the only army that is copping these nerfs.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 16:06

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
This is a discussion about the rumors and how they effect DE. Please keep all the negativity and talks about negitivity out of this thread. Everyone is allowed their own oppinions and interpretations of the rules

I appreciate your point, but forum rule 3 states - 3. We encourage and promote constructive and positive discussions about all aspects of the Games Workshop hobby. We do not wish to see negative topics or comments.

My comment was simply intended to try and bring a bit of balance to the discussion that had been taking place at that time, which I felt was not in the spirit of rule 3.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 16:11

Sorry, Crazy_Irish, yes my 1st post was partly on you, but I've just seen too many fleet armies saying the same thing, and it finally got to me.. Wasn't meant to be any offense, I was just weirded out by people who seem to be seeing 2D6" assault vs previously 6" then shouting "Sweet!", which is cool and all for them non-fleet losers...

But anyway, isn't it 3D6" and remove the highest when charging into/out of cover?

I do really like how our beastmaster seems to have gotten buff'd with the rumours, they still have their 4+ invulnerable from khymerae, but now can move 12", ignore terrain, then charge at 2D6"! Able to move with Baron at the same speed now! Very Happy Hellions' buff is a bit meh, but I'll take that 1st S3 auto-hit in combat they assaulted, still better than nothing...
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 16:12

Well that's true, but that also means it will be better not to take anything with cc capabilities because the other armies can all field 2+ saves commanders in their ranks. Why assault weak ranged troops when we can poison them from far away? Our assault units were there to kill the elites one or entangle them (wyches). Now we can't do that anymore. So we have to bring more shooting and forgo h2h...
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 16:24

@Ereshkigal wrote:
Huskblade right now, if not Faqed, is ap3. Vect is ap3 too and now can only rerolls 1s.

I will say if you remember, a few rumors from awhile ago said they will release updates for all the books to pull them in line with the codex. The book "technically" isnt out yet, so they wouldnt put those FAQs out. We will just have ot wait and see, but I doubt they wont give us any AP2 close combat weapons.
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 16:38

Yes we have to wait those damn faqs. But i doubt we will have ap2 weapons because only ccw with unwielding rule have ap2.
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The_Burning_Eye
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 16:59

Klaives sound (and look) like they're unwieldy to me, what's the betting they become our anti-terminator unit (you know, like an elite warrior sect should be). They wouldn't have given it the unwieldy rule in the codex because it makes no sense under 5th ed, but FAQ could easily add that in (and would explain why they didn't give them grenades)

I agree with shadows revenge above, GW wouldn't be daft enough not to give an army like DE, which has significant assault elements, no way of dealing with 2+ save in combat.

This whole issue though still only revolves around a very small portion of most armies and to my mind what GW are doing is saying that you need to be more careful who you assault, with what and when.

I'm expecting the FAQ's up on Saturday when the rulebook goes on general sale, doesn't make sense for them to wait any longer, they've had plenty of time to prepare them.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 17:04

@Ereshkigal wrote:
Yes we have to wait those damn faqs. But i doubt we will have ap2 weapons because only ccw with unwielding rule have ap2.

true, but dont you think if any race would make graceful AP2 weapons it would be the Eldar Razz

Also there are boneswords, which just ignore armor... infact that would be the easy way to word it in the FAQ
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 17:12

Yes but incubi at initiative 1 doesn't make that much sense either (they'll die anyway to termies thanks to their saves). And what about:
Archon, Succubus, Vect, Drazhar, Mephiston, Paladins, Draigo and so on: can't kill termies! A single lucky termie can kill mephiston and come out unharmed! It's the most nonsensical thing in this entire edition. Really, the other rules somewhat makes sense but this one is really without reasoning imho.
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DarkKokabel
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 17:57

Um, I'm sorry but who was throwing Incubi and SC's at termies before? I was under the impression that Dark Eldar tactics 101 was to either lock them up with wyches (still viable without having to worry about overwatch) or strand them and shoot them to death, seeing as SS's made it where Incubi would tend to lose that combat anyway since they don't have an invul. So for everyone crying "OMG Incubi are the SUX!!111!!!" use them for what they did before, mulch a MEQ squad and laugh at the look of horror on your opponents face. So what if a lot of stuff is AP3 in CC, you seem to be forgetting Disintegrator cannons. We still have yet to see what this edition will do to mech lists so it might be viable for us to trade out for a bunch or them, especially if we take Voidravens and Scourges with HWB for AT. And on the note of overwatch, they still need 6's to hit and if you're charging a large enough unit where the odds are that you'd lose enough people to that to not make combat effective, you were going to lose combat anyway because of being way too outnumbered.
And for the people that keep saying that hull points screws our raider, how? Yes bolters can kill us, they could before. And you seem to be forgetting that they need 6's to glance. Oh and Night shields are useless? Um I think I'll keep them so that way I can only be rapid fired on from 6" thanks. If anything, I prefer the hull points because before it just took a glance and a lucky roll of a 6 and we were wrecked. Now they won't roll on vehicle damage tables when it's a glance.
I thought this was a TACTICAL miniatures game. So instead of complaining about this change or that, think about how to turn it to your advantage. You want to get screwed? Trying playing bugs, but even then they didn't get that hosed. They are my other arm and I've already thought of a million ways to abuse the new rules in their favor. If Dark Eldar are truly YOUR army then make it work don't just whine about it. I'm sorry if this comes off as rude but this has essentially devolved into a whine first and I am really tempted to go get some cheese for a lot of the people here. Learn to play with the new rules or change armies. Use tactics, because oh, that's right, most of our tactics still work.
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lululu_42
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 18:13

+1 for DarkKokabel

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 18:29

TH/SS termies... no

Regular Termies: Yes please Razz

Incubi chew threw them like no other

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Allandrel
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 18:31

I must say that I REALLY like the new vehicle rules, and I think that gameplay will show that DE get plenty from them despite the small reduction in mechanized assault range.

Our transports are no longer blown up or stunned/immobilized by a single bolter shot. Sure the enemy can glance us to death with small arms, but they already do that all the time.

The important thing about HP is that we can more or less guarantee the destruction of a vehicle we set our sights on. No more making half a dozen damage rolls only to knock off a bolter and get a "crew shaken" result. Three to four glancing/penetrating hits AT MOST kill anything.

DE gunboat threat bubble has gone from 18" to 36" with the ability to move a transport 12" and then snap-fire splinter rifles up to 24". Two words: splinter racks. They almost double the hit rate of snap-fired splinter rifles. Yes, the damage output at these greater ranges is reduced, but it's a big boost over no damage, and our gunboat's 18" threat bubble remains unchanged.

However...

I just realized something about the change to Feel No Pain. While a 5+ roll might seem a fair trade-off for getting FNP rolls against AP1-2 weapons, the actual number of weapons that DE will now gain FNP rolls against under 6th is pretty small.

With normal power weapons at AP3, they would not negate FNP even if the AP restriction was still there.

For T4+ units (marines, orks, Coven units, etc.) there are a host of S6-7 weapons like plasma weapons that FNP now applies against.

But for T3 Dark Eldar, most of the AP1-2 weapons will negate FNP due to Instant Death from S6+.

So this rules change is perhaps an even trade for most armies, but a definite downgrade for DE.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 18:43

This just in on some of the powers. We may well be glad we can take Eldar allies...

TELEPATHY

dominate - each time the targetted unit (24'' inch range) attempts to move, shooot or assault, it must take a leadership test, if the test is faile dthe unit does nothing for that phase.

mental fortitude - a unit falling back within 24'' immidiately regroups and gains the fearless special rule for aslong as this power lasts.

invisibilty - grants a freindly unit with stealth and shrouded special rules, enemy models in CC hit at WS 1, also models assaulted by an invisible unit gain no benefit from counter attack.

hallucination - target an enemy unit within 24''. roll d6
1-2 target unit is auto pinned, unless it would normally pass its morale checks.
3-4 the unit cannot, shoot, run, or declare blows in CC or assault while the power is in effect
5-6 every unit in the unit immidiately inflicts a single wound ona freindly model from the same unit, using all weapons and strength at there disposal.

puppet master - lets you take over a unit within 24'' and shoot with it for one turn (cannot target your own unit)

terrify - target recieves no benefit from the fearless special rule and treat all enemies as having the fear special rule.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 19:09

@KheraKhera: Hey no offence taken here, i know exactely why you reacted how you did ;-)

@The_Burning_Eye: Nice that i do not stand alone with my thoughts. Infaced im wishlisting that Balefire has the new keep on burning special rule ;-) but i seriously have no claim to back this up....

@DarkKokabel: +1 for most of your post, -1 for not using paragraphs ;-)
On Inccubi Vs Termis. If you combin them with wyches, you can force the termis to only be able to hit with one termi onto your inccubi by the right placement. as you said, tactics ;-)

On Assault move, thanks to the kindness of Ereshkigal, we know that fleet allowes us to reroll either one or both dice for charge distance, which is GREAT!

@Levitas: TELEPATHY has some pretty nasty things, but i will still try to play mostly pure DE, well at first XD

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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 19:24

The problem to me is not the TH/SS termies, but the IC with 2+ armor save who can challenge our archon or chew our incubi and we can't do jack to them. How many armies can field a IC with 2+ armor? What can we do to them? If the answer is always "shoot them", then there is no point in taking melees in our army... hence why i am perplexed.

p.s.: why ppl use incubi to kill standard marines? Splinter weapons are meant for kill them. Incubi were the hammer to crush the survivors, anyone. Even TH/SS (after killing many of those with fire).
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 19:26

Terrify is powerful indeed... think about making Fearless units run with a well place assault, or if their leader loses in a challenge...

But that also has to be asked, is losing doom and fortune worth the random roll??? Sure these powers are nice, but I can only pick like 2~3 that are on par with both doom and fortune. Is it worth it to lose two amazing powers for only a small chance for a equal one? I doubt it.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 19:34

I'm kinda interested in knowing if we could use S+ drug, FC bonus or, say, Baron's custom skyboard(S2+ on charge) with hammer of wrath, or even, our re-roll to wound drug... Seeing how the rumour is that we don't get to use our weapon bonuses with it.
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 19:43

Drugs work with hammer of wrath. FC and other things like that don't
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KheraKhera
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 20:12

@Ereshkigal wrote:
Drugs work with hammer of wrath. FC and other things like that don't

Aww... still, that's somewhat a good news. Is it per model, by the way? So 20 hellions led by Baron will get 21 hammers at S3(or 20x S4 with drug and 1x S3 for Baron), and it is auto-hit, right?
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 20:13

Fleet allowing us to choose which die or dice to re-roll means that it is better than it was in 5th, even with the ability to run and assault removed.

Unfortunately, since Overwatch does not require any kind of trade-off, assaulting is FAR more dangerous for DE than for... well just about any other army besides Chaos Daemons. Ork Hordes gain a ridiculous benefit from this rule.

Wyches become especially poor against targets with any kind of shooting capability, meaning that haywiring vehicles and tying up assault deathstars are the only things they will be good for.

Given the preponderance of ICs with 2+ armor saves and the challenge mechanic, the FAQ ruling on our close combat weapon AP will pretty much decide whether DE assault will be viable.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 20:23

Rapid firing at half range rather than 12" means that Night Shields affect rapid fire range just like melta range, instead of reducing it directly.

So for a 24" RF weapon firing at a vehicle with Night Shields:
5th edition: 1 shot up to 18", or 2 shots up to 6"
6th edition: 1 shot up to 18", or 2 shots up to 9"

30" RF weapon firing at a vehicle with Night Shields:
5th edition: 1 shot up to 24", or 2 shots up to 6"
6th edition: 1 shot up to 24", or 2 shots up to 12"

So this rule not only benefits the Tau, it makes the DE more vulnerable.

And against Tau, who can penetrate our transports with their basic weapons, this is doubly true. Then again, the Tau need all the help they can get.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 20:25

@Allandrel wrote:
Fleet allowing us to choose which die or dice to re-roll means that it is better than it was in 5th, even with the ability to run and assault removed.
So you are saying that 2D6 with reroll is better than 6+D6? I'm afraid that's simply not true.
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Ereshkigal
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 20:28

@KheraKhera wrote:
@Ereshkigal wrote:
Drugs work with hammer of wrath. FC and other things like that don't

Aww... still, that's somewhat a good news. Is it per model, by the way? So 20 hellions led by Baron will get 21 hammers at S3(or 20x S4 with drug and 1x S3 for Baron), and it is auto-hit, right?

Right. But at AP -
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Wed Jun 27 2012, 20:29

Agreed the guaranteed 6 counts for a lot , you could roll two ones , then re roll them and get two ones .... before it was a guaranteed 7 inches at least now its anybodys guess .... coupled with stand and shoot , I worry for my wyches with their nerfed FNP (yes FNP has been nerfed for DE, but buffed for marines rly)

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