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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Thu Jun 14 2012, 03:28

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Master crafted weapons giving a 5++ seems utterly pointless since practically nobody has them and those that have tend to have a better invulnerable save anyway.

Yes, that would be nearly completely pointless... Imperium are the only ones I can think of that would have master crafted weapons... but it might be a way to take away some of the importance of power weapons. While I never really see master crafted weapons, I bet if you got a 5++ for them as well, you would see them a lot more often.

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...But units inside vehicles can't hold objectives. What the hell are we supposed to do in objective-based missions then?... ignore objectives and kill everything.

Well that's how a lot of people play already, so it wont be a huge change... I normally try and hold a single objective and focus on killing my opponents objective holders... It's worked well for me so far...

Quote :
Seems double strenght no longer instagibs us. Makes us a bit less vulnerable to going splat when the shadowfield fails. The downside is that we need some more lance hits to kill Tyranid Warriors and the like.

Use S9 weapons? We do have some of those...

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Vect and Abaddon are no longer worth the same amount of KP than an empty Rhino. Makes spamming cheap units less bad in KP missions (I I understand correctly, both players would have the same total KP, so no situations where the entire enemy army gives 3 KP while you have 15).

Wow! So we would be even with a space marine army? sounds sketchy... would make life WAAAAAAAAY too easy for xeno... XD This would be a welcome change though...



As far as the phases change goes... from the rumors, it would be more like

move
declare assault
snapfire
assault
shooting

It's going to be interesting to be able to shoot with wyches AFTER I assault and win combat resolution. Pain tokens are going to be a bit easier to come by. Also melee units with BS will make sense! XD... except Lellith... why does she have a BS at all? /confused...

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Thu Jun 14 2012, 14:13

To jack her points cost up.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Thu Jun 14 2012, 14:20

Just a note on the master crafted thing - the rule that I read was that any normal power weapon would bestow the user a "parry" save of a 5+ invul. Not all power weapons did this, just the plain ones but their was an exception in the master crafted rule that it would be able to confer a 5+ invul as well (unlike force weapons, halberds, agonisers, etc.,). Theoretically, a Haemy with a power weapon would be able to take the 5+ invul whereas if the haemy took an agoniser you could not.

Two mechanics I was happy to see in the leaked pdf was that of pinning and reserves ( I would also lump in deep striking but I am not sure I understand all the changes with that one).

Pinning would really help the mandrakes a ton, the change is on line in my wish list in that the target would take -1 modifiers to their leadership for every unsaved wound they took. This would max out at -3 but still is enough to make marines more vulnerable to being pinned than they are now.

The reserve mechanic I absolutely adore and hope it ends up close to what I have seen. Influencing the chances of arriving while at the same time delaying the arrival of certain units would be a HUGE boon to Web Way Portal users. I suppose I am just happy they are considering a change in this area, who knows.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Thu Jun 14 2012, 14:30

The thing about master crafted weapons is thta nearly every unit thta can take them (ie. a few Imperial units) already have access to a 5++ or better save. The only one that doesn't that I can think of is the Sanquinary Guard. Perhaps we could see more mc weapons in the future. As it is, the rule seems practically fogotten. It shouldn't be limited to Imperium eighter, surely other factions (except Orks and Nids) should know how to make master crafted weapons. Drazhar's blades should really be ones, considering that's he's pretty much a Phoenix Lord and they always have ancient and super-awesome stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Thu Jun 14 2012, 14:34

@Ruke wrote:

It's going to be interesting to be able to shoot with wyches AFTER I assault and win combat resolution. Pain tokens are going to be a bit easier to come by. Also melee units with BS will make sense! XD... except Lellith... why does she have a BS at all? /confused...

For when she operates a piece of weaponry in and on terrain like certain turrets and stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Thu Jun 14 2012, 14:38

Guys the move assault shoot rumours came from the pancake/leaked/fake rumours, I'd dump an enormous amount of salt on that happening.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Fri Jun 15 2012, 10:22

I am hearing so many rumors, even conflicting ones at times so I guess we will just have to wait. The hull points rumors make me happy for having gone with Scourges with HWB's. Just bought them to paint primarily but if these rumors are true they just became a lot better.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Fri Jun 15 2012, 10:35

@Firdeth wrote:
I am hearing so many rumors, even conflicting ones at times so I guess we will just have to wait. The hull points rumors make me happy for having gone with Scourges with HWB's. Just bought them to paint primarily but if these rumors are true they just became a lot better.

Agreed on both points.

Wanted to paint up some Scourges with HWB's ayway. Now I have more reason to. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Fri Jun 15 2012, 11:03

I'm pretty sure of hull points becoming real... I always take into account that DE codex was made with 6th in mind. There're not many units that can carry HW blasters... scourges and talos, and that's all. IMO, they will be better at tank killing, though they are more oriented to suppression (but in the end weapons are made to destroy... we're DE after all!!) .

Furthermore, HW grenades are the only option of combat units against armor (no power weapons, AND no fusion bombs, even Archons), so they should become more effective.

Dreadnoughts beware, my HW wyches are coming!!


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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Fri Jun 15 2012, 11:07

@Eldur wrote:
I'm pretty sure of hull points becoming real... I always take into account that DE codex was made with 6th in mind.

I always take it with a large pinch of salt when someone says Codex X was written with the next edition in mind. It's true that models, rules and codexes are designed a considerable time before they are released but they are still written in an order and there is nothing to suggest that a codex released in 2010 would have been written before a rules set that is released in 2012.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Fri Jun 15 2012, 11:12

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Eldur wrote:
I'm pretty sure of hull points becoming real... I always take into account that DE codex was made with 6th in mind.

I always take it with a large pinch of salt when someone says Codex X was written with the next edition in mind. It's true that models, rules and codexes are designed a considerable time before they are released but they are still written in an order and there is nothing to suggest that a codex released in 2010 would have been written before a rules set that is released in 2012.

I don´t know where I read it, but in some one stated that GW said explicitly that every codex after IG was written with the new rules in mind. If I find it, I´ll post a link.

Michael

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Fri Jun 15 2012, 11:19

Well, look at our flyers' rules, and you'll notice that Aerial Assault and Supersonic are in all of the new flyers. That rules appeared also in the leaked rulebook (I loved the Supersonic mechanics... awesome). I know, I know, that it could be false or wrong, but I bet that those rules will be universal for flyers in the 6th book.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Fri Jun 15 2012, 11:20

@Demagoge wrote:
I don´t know where I read it, but in some one stated that GW said explicitly that every codex after IG was written with the new rules in mind. If I find it, I´ll post a link.

I'd be surprised. A quick example. GK Codex has Mastery Levels for psykers, BA Codex doesn't. Both released after IG.

Also, Necron Codex has 'Heavy' vehicles, the GK Codex does not (and I would expect a Land Raider to fall into the same category as a Monolith). Again, both released after IG.

This points towards Necrons being the closest to 6th edition, as they have several rules that make little sense in 5th. GK were leaning towards 6th, with the mastery levels, but are still based solidly in 5th. Nothing in the DE Codex makes me think that it is anything other than a 5th edition book. It would seem to be an evolving process, rather than a "We've written 6th edition so all our codexes from now on will be written with that in mind".

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Fri Jun 15 2012, 11:44

@Eldur wrote:
Dreadnoughts beware, my HW wyches are coming!!


I really recommend you don't try this unless the rules for hitting walker in CC with grenades changes, at present it only happens on a 6, i spent several turns in one game i played trying to work that one to no avail.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Fri Jun 15 2012, 11:51

@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Eldur wrote:
Dreadnoughts beware, my HW wyches are coming!!


I really recommend you don't try this unless the rules for hitting walker in CC with grenades changes, at present it only happens on a 6, i spent several turns in one game i played trying to work that one to no avail.

That's only the first round of combat. Wyches are that durable with their 4++ save that the next round of combat they score enough hits to make a dent. And what Eldur means is when that happens it'll only take 3 glancing hits with 6th edition hull points (which is easy with HW's) to destroy the dread.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Fri Jun 15 2012, 12:03

Usually wyches last enough against dreads, but now they tarpit them for 3-4 combat rounds untill the machine falls down...

At 6+ to hit and 2+ to glance/6+ to pen= 13.88% to glance, 2.77% for penetrating hit.

so.... 7 attacks to glance, 36 to pen.

Right now, you can glance to infinite without destroying the dread. If it had 3 hull points you need only 3 rolls in the chart (if I'm not wrong, 0 hull points left is equal to wrecked...) so only 21 attacks (1 charge or 2 rounds of combat. Slightly better than now!!!

Edit: Now that we're talking of HW hits...

Scourges with HW.... 3+ to hit, 2+to glance/6+ to pen..

4 shots--> 2.2 glancing, 0.44 pens

Not enough to kill a tank, but one more lance or two from raiders/devs and it's probably down (even Land Raiders wont last after a couple of shots!!! Twisted Evil )

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Fri Jun 15 2012, 14:42

[quote="Count Adhemar"]
@Demagoge wrote:

This points towards Necrons being the closest to 6th edition, as they have several rules that make little sense in 5th. GK were leaning towards 6th, with the mastery levels, but are still based solidly in 5th. Nothing in the DE Codex makes me think that it is anything other than a 5th edition book. It would seem to be an evolving process, rather than a "We've written 6th edition so all our codexes from now on will be written with that in mind".

Supersonic and Aireal Assault say otherwise... atleast for those units
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Fri Jun 15 2012, 14:47

[quote="Shadows Revenge"]
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Demagoge wrote:

This points towards Necrons being the closest to 6th edition, as they have several rules that make little sense in 5th. GK were leaning towards 6th, with the mastery levels, but are still based solidly in 5th. Nothing in the DE Codex makes me think that it is anything other than a 5th edition book. It would seem to be an evolving process, rather than a "We've written 6th edition so all our codexes from now on will be written with that in mind".

Supersonic and Aireal Assault say otherwise... atleast for those units

I don't see that they do. The fact that a rule is introduced in a codex does not mean that the new edition has been written. As I said, it seems to be an evolution and if they put a new rule in a codex that seems to work well then it makes sense to add it to the new edition when that is being developed.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Fri Jun 15 2012, 17:13

@tlronin wrote:
@The_Burning_Eye wrote:
@Eldur wrote:
Dreadnoughts beware, my HW wyches are coming!!


I really recommend you don't try this unless the rules for hitting walker in CC with grenades changes, at present it only happens on a 6, i spent several turns in one game i played trying to work that one to no avail.

That's only the first round of combat. Wyches are that durable with their 4++ save that the next round of combat they score enough hits to make a dent. And what Eldur means is when that happens it'll only take 3 glancing hits with 6th edition hull points (which is easy with HW's) to destroy the dread.

P73 of the rulebook states that 'A model will only manage to score a hit with a grenade against a walker on the roll of a 6.' The only time you use WS is if the walker is already stunned or immobilised. I completely understand that wyches are durable enough to survive long enough to do some damage, in the game I mentioned above i only lost one in about four rounds of combat. I also get that they're much more likely to destroy a dread given the rumoured situation in 6th, but unless they change the 6 to hit rule, getting that first hit is the difficult part. Of course once you've got that, you're much more likely to be able to find the second hit easier with a stunned/immobilised result.

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Fri Jun 15 2012, 19:17

Quote :
I don't see that they do. The fact that a rule is introduced in a codex does not mean that the new edition has been written. As I said, it seems to be an evolution and if they put a new rule in a codex that seems to work well then it makes sense to add it to the new edition when that is being developed.

I actually find it highly likely that SOME UNITS FROM EACH CODEX AFTER IG were developed for 6th. Almost every codex has some things that make you go "whaaaa?... why are these so dumb?". Mandrakes seem like they were created for 6th, as do the aerial assault rule, fortitude, heavy vehicles, and tyranid spore pods along with a few other tyranid units like the giant flying thing (that im not going to drag out my codex to look up the name of), I'm not as familiar with some of the other codexes as to keep going, but you get the idea.

Doing that actually makes sense. If you know in 2009 what major changes you want to accomplish with the next edition, you can work those into the upcoming codexes. You don't have to know HOW the rule will work, just be able to highlight it when you create the unit. A good example is the mandrakes "evil looking blades"... why would they make sure to specify that they are "evil looking blades" instead of just close combat weapons, and why would mandrakes - a close combat unit overall - not have two CCW? I'm relatively positive that mandrakes, at least, were made with 6th edition in mind.

However, if you write an entire codex with 6th in mind, you cant expect people to pay for those models and to play that army in 5th? If there is one thing we can all agree on, it's that GW likes to make their moneys, so it would make fiscal sense that you write a codex for 5th, tossing in the odd unit or two for 6th so that people will want to buy models that they had previously ignored in 5th (and then later on in 6th writing an entire new codex so that people will have to replace their 5th ed models >.<).

Look at some of our more questionable models and model options and then compare those to the rumors about 6th. Hexrifle, mandrakes, VRB? even things like the ichor gauntlet and huskblade will make more sense (yes, they aren't bad now, but in 6th if the rumors are true, something is going to have to state that it inflicts instant death because if it just has a high strength it's just going to deal more wounds...)

If that rumor is true, huskblade/soultrap archons are going to become even more beastly...

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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Fri Jun 15 2012, 19:57

In French version of the codex, there is CC weapon writen next to hooked blade. I hope also Mandrakes will get a boost, but unfortunatly I think their 2 attacks are explaining why only one weapon and they will keep only normal cc weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Sat Jun 16 2012, 01:18

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I always take it with a large pinch of salt when someone says Codex X was written with the next edition in mind. It's true that models, rules and codexes are designed a considerable time before they are released but they are still written in an order and there is nothing to suggest that a codex released in 2010 would have been written before a rules set that is released in 2012.

I quite agree. A good example of this is the last WHFB Skaven book, which was the last 7th Edition fantasy book and featured significant changes to war machines that the 8E rules and army books did not continue.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Sat Jun 16 2012, 03:01

I just realised that with the new IC vs IC combat rules and the favoured enemy change, Decapitator might kill something... lol only joking.
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Sat Jun 16 2012, 18:22

So magic is coming to the game, apparently. How on earth is this supposed to work?
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PostSubject: Re: 6th Ed rumors and DE   Sat Jun 16 2012, 18:25

@Arrex wrote:
So magic is coming to the game, apparently. How on earth is this supposed to work?

Well, we won't know until 6th ed is released, I'd guess that there would either be a round for psychic powers and racial abilitites, or that you would be free to use them at any point in the game, but once you have used the ability on the card it may not be used again.

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