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Lightcavalier
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Sun Sep 18 2011, 14:43

Out here we just all agreed that the prow, rudder, and sail are not part of the hull.
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mukslinger
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Tue Oct 11 2011, 18:22

same here,

Using the ork trukk as an example. The brb, page 12 and 69, shows a diagram of what counts as hull on the trukk as shaded areas. Which do not include the crew, bars/pipes, guns, steering wheel, bumper or engine.

If you were to shade the hull of a raider: you would not include, crew, bars/pipes, blades, chains, guns, rudder, console, prow or sail.

someone may argue that the ork truck diagram might show a reinforced ram, and that a bumper/prow will count as hull if it isn't upgraded to a ram/shock prow. That would be a stretch, and rules lawyering at best. Yes, the prow is part of the official raider model. Same goes for the bumper on the ork trukk and it doesn't count as hull either.

Have a look at the two raider halves, thats your hull, everything else is decoration. The raider hull dimensions aren't that different than a rhino's, and the rotate/disembark trick isn't so tricky.

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Veldrith
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Tue Oct 11 2011, 19:52

Ever try to convince someone on a boat that the prow is not part of the boat's hull? Smile

It'd be much easier to convince someone that a bumper is not part of a car's chassis. Because it's not, by definition. The prow, on the other hand, is by definition a particular part of a boat's hull. Same word, same portion of the vehicle's hull, same definition, same thing.

It's a prow, not a bumper. Remove a prow from a boat, and the boat will sink -- because the prow is integral, because the prow is a piece of the hull. Finally, even by the wording of RAW, models may disembark from "ANY PART of an open-topped vehicle", and not "any part of the hull". If I wanted to disembark straight up onto the top floor of a building from the tip of my sail, I could technically do that. That'd be Rules Lawyering. Smile

The other stuff, though? That's common sense for anyone who's ever owned a boat.

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The prow is the forward most part of a ship's bow that cuts through the water (Wikipedia/Dictionary.com)

The bow (pronounced /ˈbaʊ/, rhymes with how) is a nautical term that refers to the forward part of the hull of a ship or boat, the point that is most forward when the vessel is underway. (Wikipedia/Dictionary.com)



^----- Helpful image for all those silly folks who still have no idea how to wrap their mind around the concept of a prow being a part of a ship's hull.
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Cailos
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Tue Oct 11 2011, 20:26

@Veldrith wrote:

Finally, even by the wording of RAW, models may disembark from "ANY PART of an open-topped vehicle", and not "any part of the hull". If I wanted to disembark straight up onto the top floor of a building from the tip of my sail, I could technically do that. That'd be Rules Lawyering. Smile

I am so going to do that. And if anyone says anything I will be like well its part of the vehicle so I can disembark from it.

And really they are Dark Eldar they can climb up the sail, walk up to the tip, and jump off of it to the build. That is reality.
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Mr Believer
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Wed Oct 12 2011, 00:20

@Cailos wrote:
@Veldrith wrote:

Finally, even by the wording of RAW, models may disembark from "ANY PART of an open-topped vehicle", and not "any part of the hull". If I wanted to disembark straight up onto the top floor of a building from the tip of my sail, I could technically do that. That'd be Rules Lawyering. Smile

I am so going to do that. And if anyone says anything I will be like well its part of the vehicle so I can disembark from it.

And really they are Dark Eldar they can climb up the sail, walk up to the tip, and jump off of it to the build. That is reality.

Presumably this is why you can extend the gangplank as well, although it does open it up to abuse, like having a really long tube on the front of the ship which you declare to be a Torment Grenade Launcher, which your troops can disembark from but can't be targeted. Like a six foot long tube.

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mukslinger
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Wed Oct 12 2011, 01:06

first, I love a talking rules, I find I learn little tidbits no one ever remembers that way, I do have a tendancy to come accross like a tool sometimes. If I do, I appologize in advance, lol.

You are doing what I find a lot of players do sometimes, you are trying to add real definitions and scenarios to a table top game that has it's own rules and definitions.

But, ok, my search-fu tells me that a prow has more than one definition. A prow could mean the bladed part of a boat that cuts thru the water, or the part of a boat that is above the water line in the front of the boat, or a battery of guns in the front of the boat, or the pointy part of a nose of a plane, or simply something pointed sticking out of the front of a traveling object, and can be decorative. you chose only one definition to make your point, i listed them all, also wikipedia and whatnot.

Raiders don't float, they fly, and through dimensions at that. So, they are not boats, the prow in this case is not a battery of guns also a possible nautical term, but it is something pointy sticking out the front. dark eldar raiders are not boats, they are warhammer 40k vehicles.

It doesnt matter that something is called a bumper, ram, or prow, its the same thing. they are all objects sticking out the front of a traveling object, all prows by definition, if they are pointy, lol. but, functionally game-wise, the same. Just like brood, unit, squad, mob, cadre, or whatever are the same thing. They are just cool fluffy names to give to something that fits the motif.

in this game, you can shoot and whipe out an entire squad who are hiding behind an impenetrable wall, all because one dude had his foot sticking out. Try to tell a real solder that although him and his ten other buddies were hidden and safe, yet they can all die when one guy gets his foot got shot to peices by small arms fire. Its a game, and the rules tell you that's what happens.

Both the ork trukk and dark eldar raider are warhammer 40k vehicles, and both follow the rules that govern them in the game. It doesn't matter that one looks like a boat or a messed up hot rod dump truck. In game terms, functionally the raider prow and trukk ram are the exact same thing. both are officially always represented on their respective models. both have different designs that can be used. both are peices that stick out the front of a warhammer 40k vehicle. And both can be upgraded via a wargear option.

The official diagram of an ork trukk hull ignores this bit, a de raider hull diagram would as well.

lol, I love rules lawyering. hehe. I knew someone would say they can hop out of the tip of the aether sail. As a skimmer, all measurements of distances are measured to and from the hull. would include embarking and disembarking. you have to consider access points too, but I don't think a sail would be considered a possible access point, lol, but pirates swing from them in the movies! hahahahaha

you know, we actually had a guy here try to hop out on the third floor of a building this way, after much laughter and a threat to kick him in the nuts, he reconsidered.

although we might never know for certain, it's up to each gaming group to decide what they think, maybe sixth will have a raider hull diagram, lol.


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Anggul
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Thu Oct 27 2011, 10:24

I deploy using the prow as my limit, so I disembark using the prow as my limit. If it couldn't be used for disembarking, then you'd be able to deploy the prow over the line, (just like if your model's wings are over the line it doesn't matter as long as their base is in) and measure ramming and tank shocking with the flat bit just before the prow rather than the actual prow.

Thus, I think the best and easiest way is to say the prow is part of the hull that can be used for deployment/disembarked from/be shot at by your opponent.

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Aroshamash
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Thu Oct 27 2011, 11:15

@Veldrith wrote:
Ever try to convince someone on a boat that the prow is not part of the boat's hull? Smile

It'd be much easier to convince someone that a bumper is not part of a car's chassis. Because it's not, by definition. The prow, on the other hand, is by definition a particular part of a boat's hull. Same word, same portion of the vehicle's hull, same definition, same thing.

It's a prow, not a bumper. Remove a prow from a boat, and the boat will sink -- because the prow is integral, because the prow is a piece of the hull. Finally, even by the wording of RAW, models may disembark from "ANY PART of an open-topped vehicle", and not "any part of the hull". If I wanted to disembark straight up onto the top floor of a building from the tip of my sail, I could technically do that. That'd be Rules Lawyering. Smile

The other stuff, though? That's common sense for anyone who's ever owned a boat.

_____________________

The prow is the forward most part of a ship's bow that cuts through the water (Wikipedia/Dictionary.com)

The bow (pronounced /ˈbaʊ/, rhymes with how) is a nautical term that refers to the forward part of the hull of a ship or boat, the point that is most forward when the vessel is underway. (Wikipedia/Dictionary.com)



^----- Helpful image for all those silly folks who still have no idea how to wrap their mind around the concept of a prow being a part of a ship's hull.

Congratulations, you've shown that a sailing ship has a certain sort of prow, which is the hull. However, we're not talking about sailing ships. We're talking about Dark Eldar Raiders/Ravagers, a vehicle that, while it has a prow, isn't really that strongly connected with the rest of the hull, it's more of a spike on the end of a stick.

In other words, they're two entirely different things. Something that holds true for one does not necessarily hold true for the other.

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mukslinger
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Thu Oct 27 2011, 15:05

@Anggul wrote:
I deploy using the prow as my limit, so I disembark using the prow as my limit. If it couldn't be used for disembarking, then you'd be able to deploy the prow over the line, (just like if your model's wings are over the line it doesn't matter as long as their base is in) and measure ramming and tank shocking with the flat bit just before the prow rather than the actual prow.

Thus, I think the best and easiest way is to say the prow is part of the hull that can be used for deployment/disembarked from/be shot at by your opponent.

You can't deploy ork trukks with the bumper/prow/ram over the line, and it's not hull. They can't measure disembark from it either, they have to do it from the frame behind it. This would be the same for the raider.

Valkyrie wings can't be over the line, and count as hull, it's in the faq. BGB FAQ v1.4 p.4 (July 2011). This would technically be the same for every vehicle with wings and a base. The rules for a model such as a daemon prince with wings, are not the same as the rules for vehicles with wings.

Ork trukks and dark eldar raiders are both warhammer 40k vehicles, both with a bumper/ram/prow that are both officially always represented on the model, both can be upgraded thru a wargear option. The ork trukk does not count this bit as hull, neither would the raider. we dont care what they are called or look like, thats just being fluffy for the motif.

Like has been said: there is more than one definition of prow, the raider is not a boat, it's a representation of a warhammer 40k vehicle.

Specifically, it's an open top vehicle and a skimmer: all distances are measured to and from the hull. You can disembark from any point, but it has to be measured from the hull. ie, you can't hop off the tippy-top of the sail and onto the top of a building, like you were captain jack sparrow, yaaar.

One could technically do a count-as dark eldar army using ork vehicles, and use hover-trukks as raiders In which case the bumper/ram/prow would still not count as hull. That's the beauty, you can be creative and still know how it works in the game.

You could choose not to put on the pointy bit and do something different, like a model of a slave girl strapped to the front, maybe with bat wings wrapped up around like shes a flying succubus or something. She's the prow, she still won't count as hull, lol.
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MaxKool
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Thu Oct 27 2011, 17:37

The simple fact that it says I can disembark from ANY part of the vehicle makes most of this discussion a mute point.

IE
1) The prow may or may not be part of the hull
2) the prow IS definitely part Of the vehicle
3) raw says I can disembark from any part of the vehicle..

There is no distinction from hull or part of vehicle in the disembarking rules, so for that part of this discussion it is completely clear. The movement and LOS and measuring parts about the prow and hull can easily be do used before the game just as terrain is.

In a game of social-ness (even a word?) it amazes me how many people are afraid to talk to their opponent about issues, and instead look for some obscure raw/rai argument to force the fact when some simple sportsmanship and courtesy would solve 90% of these so called issues before they even come up.... Speeds the game up as well..

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Thu Oct 27 2011, 18:24

Max is actually correct on that point. Per the rules emergency disembarks happen from the hull - regular disembarks happen from any point on the vehicle.

I would agree with his call that the best way is to discuss with your opponent before game (or TO prior to tourney start) but it is most assuredly a gray area.

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mukslinger
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Fri Oct 28 2011, 16:20

Yeah, I would always discuss it with my opponant before hand, it's always best to avoid debate during a game. Here, on the forums, we have the luxury of being able to talk things through in more depth. I also understand that this is a grey area for some, so I will state my final case and leave it to others to decide what they want to do. It's their game too, and I'm no ogre, rawr! hehe.

He is only reading part of the rules. Also, it's not any part of the vehicle, it's any point of the vehicle. There is a difference, not that it matters. But in this case they are talking about the perimeter, any point around the vehicle. Let's not discuss part vs point, because it doesn't really matter here.

- all measurements must be taken to and from the hull.
brb page 56 for all vehicles, and again for clarity because skimmers have bases and might cause confusion: brb page 71.

We most certainly can disembark 2" from any point of the vehicle (front/back/side/ whatever), but when we make that measurement we must measure from the hull.

All that rule is saying that open top vehicles have no specific access points to measure from. Every point is an access point, technically, but it does not negate the fact that all measurements must be taken to and from the hull. Including disembarking. The few exceptions being vehicles with access points and shooting guns, and that's pretty much it.

emergency disembark is a special case that allows vehicles with access points to get out from any point of their ride, a rule that doesnt apply to open top vehicles because they can do that anyway. The measurement is still from hull.

There is no obscure raw/rai arguement here. it can't be any simpler, you have to measure from hull, what is hull, is the question.

I don't need to expain it any further but ......

~the crazy part of allowing disembarking from a decorative element~

ok lets go with your interpretation of allowing disembarking from a decorative element, such as a ram, and open up a whole world of messed up, shinanigans.

decorative elements (rams, prows, gun barrels, dozer blades, engines, spears, chains, blades, antanae, crew, gang planks, ramps, -ork trukks have them- all not hull). All are parts of just about every 40k vehicle. They do not differentiate between them, they just look different, they could be anything. If it isn't hull, it's decorative, basically.

Can we disembark from them? that would mean, we can disembark from the tip of the spear of one of the hanging dark eldar dudes on the side of a raider. he's decorative, but he's still part of the vehicle, just like a dozer blade or ram. It doesnt matter what the decorative element looks like or is, we can't pick and choose.

We can't say that you can disembark from a ram because it looks like an actual part of the vehicle. But we can't disembark from a hanging dude because he doesn't. What if we say he's a metal statue welded on to the side, maybe with antigrav tech inside to help stablize flight, which anyone could do, makes him as solid and as part of the vehicle as a dozerblade. Ultimately, they are both just simply decorative elements of the vehicle.

If we allow disembarking from one decorative element, we would have to include all decorative elements: spears, banners, blades, chains, dozer blades, gun barrels, and yes, even hanging dudes and the weapons they are holding, etc.

That would be a world of fun, but against the rules, because the brb tells us that all measurements have to be taken to and from the hull. Again, the few exceptions being vehicles with access points and shooting guns, and that's pretty much it.

It is better to try to make a case that the prow is hull. which we know it is not, based on the fact the same item on other 40k vehicles are not, as per the diagrams from the brb.






Last edited by mukslinger on Fri Oct 28 2011, 17:25; edited 1 time in total
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MaxKool
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Fri Oct 28 2011, 17:01

The point is that Barring the larger prow On a ravager, the bloody thing is part of the hull. U can leave off the hanging men if u like as they are for looks and serve no purpose. Show me a raider without a prow.. There isn't one and it's part of the hull. The hull is designed to have that peice attached to it. Do u deploy with it hanging over the line? Seeing and the people who want to say it's not part of the hull are saying it's ignored for measuring??

Look at it this way, the plastic part we are talking about isnt an optional part of the model like a dozer blade or deff rolla. It's always goIng to be installed unlike all the other examples.

A deff rolls hangs out further from the hull than u can physically put a model in the 2" range. My problem is this, the deff rolla can't be destroyed. It then must be considerEd part of the hull as it's not a decoration it has a use but can't be affected in game terms. Also it must mean u can't disembark from the front of a bw as measuring from front of the bw puts a model hanging an edge on the dr making it basically unplaceable.
So the only way to get disembarked in the front arc of a bw w/ deff rolla is to pivot and expose side armor.

The prow model peice(not the classic nautical definition) is completely a part of the hull as it dosnt fit in with the descriptions of things that are not hull. It isn't an optional part or decoration.

Either way this will never be solved to be honest without gw faqing it. Wich i doubt we will see....
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Fri Oct 28 2011, 17:52

@mukslinger wrote:
emergency disembark is a special case that allows vehicles with access points to get out from any point of their ride, a rule that doesnt apply to open top vehicles because they can do that anyway. The measurement is still from hull.
This is actually a misconception and leads to the 'point' (bad pun intended) of the gray area of the rules.

When disembarking you disembark from access points.
When emergency disembarking - specifically you disembark from the HULL.
When disembarking from an open topped transport you disembark from "ANY POINT" of the vehicle. Not hull, not access points, any point.
There is no rule, besides emergency disembark, forcing me to be within 2" of hull when disembarking - only within 2" of my access point.

Is it arguable they meant any point as in - any point of the hull? Oh, that is quite likely and I suspect their intent.
Is it equally arguable, however, that since it specifically says that these are exceptions to other rules and that open topped transports disembark from points of the vehicle as opposed to hull of the vehicle that I can claim disembark from sails, bangles, and anything else. Yeah, that's totally in there too - after all, they said 'point' not 'hull' so they can't mean hull or they would have said it - yeah?

That's the gray area.
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mukslinger
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Fri Oct 28 2011, 18:05

They do tell you that all measurements are taken to and from hull, for all vehicles, with the exception of access points and shooting guns. open top's don't have access points or firing points. They are still restricted to measuring from hull.

but I do agree you can make the argument that any "point" would include decorative elements. and I agree, they probably won't faq it. still you have to measure from the hull, you can disembark 2 inches from any point you like. but you still have to measure from hull, its in the brb - like twice.

would be fun to hop off of sails or some dudes spear tip though, hahahahha.

on the same note as max, show me an official gw picture of an ork trukk without a bumper. it's still not hull, and is ignored for measuring, as shown in the brb. we also do not deploy ork trukk bumpers/rams/deffrollas over the line.

dozer blades are not part of the hull, as per the brb.
deffrollas are not part of the hull, as per the brb.
rams are not part of the hull, as per the brb.
bumpers are not part of the hull, as per the brb

By rule, the dark eldar prow/shock prow fits the exact discription of all of the above, it just looks different. and it is pretty much exactly the same as the ork bumper/ram.

the arguement you're making about the def rolla is very similar to the arguement of valks entering from reserves. which technically have to move more than 6 inches or be destroyed because their tail will hang out over the back edge of the table. the solution is you have to move more than 6 inches. And you can't disembark in front of the deffrolla if it doesnt allow for the 2". ork players already know they can't deploy that way.

I know it's cumbersome, and doesn't make sense, but thats the way it is. at least until 6th ed. but that doesn't stop us from doing things differently than outlined in the rules. as long as our opponants, know what's what and are ok with it.

I think thats the best lesson here.
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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Fri Oct 28 2011, 19:04

"Open-topped
vehicles follow the normal vehicle rules, with the
additions and exceptions given below."

Normal rule - measure from hull.

Exception given below - may disembark from any point. So 2" from any point.

Gray area. There is no clear rule answer.

I'd love to have them FAQ it, but seeing as how they still haven't FAQed how anyone can ever disembark from any flyer transport (e.g. Valks) I highly doubt they'll ever bother with this one which is actually less obviouslly gakked over and is just a gray area for debate that probably few have issues with.
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mukslinger
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Fri Oct 28 2011, 20:15

Isn't the valk thing answered by the rule where you can measure to and from either the hull or base? like if you had to assault it.

I understand where it can be seen as grey, to me it isn't, but I understand the point of view. I've enjoyed the debate though Smile I would love to hop off a sail but I just don't see it supported by the rules.

- All measurements are to and from hull
- decorative elements are ignored when making measurements

you want to both ignore measuring to and from hull, and allow measuring to and from a decorative element. The rule can be considered an addition rather than an exception, as well.

sure, you can measure 2 inches from any point, you still should ignore decorative elements when making that measurement, which is as good as saying measure from hull.

compare ork trukk and space marine rhino:

the diagram for the rhino shows that you must measure to the access point where it attaches to the hull, effectively measuring to and from the hull at the access point. the rhino has a ramp that can be modeled down, you don't measure to and from that, because it is decorative. remember, its also always part of the vehicle and always on, and can be modeled down, you still ignore it.

the ork trukk also has ramps, you want to say because it's open top, you can now measure to and from the ramp if you have it down, because its a point and we're choosing to ignore that it's decorative?

do you really think you can hop on/off the tip of some dudes spear? because that's what it boils down to.

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Thor665
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Fri Oct 28 2011, 20:18

@mukslinger wrote:
Isn't the valk thing answered by the rule where you can measure to and from either the hull or base? like if you had to assault it.
Bases can be used in assault.

For disembarking you use 2" from access points - or if open topped 2" from 'any point'.

The base *might* count as any point if you go into that gray area - but since no flyers are open topped it doesn't matter, you have to disembark within 2" of the access points and every access point is, oh, about 6" from the table surface. Therefore you can't disembark.

As to the Raider hull/decroative thing again. I'm not saying how I play it.

What I am saying is the rules support hopping off the sail/spear/ect *just as much* as restricting to only hopping off hull. All you're doing is arguing common sense - which has no bearing in the rules sadly enough.

@mukslinger wrote:
you want to both ignore measuring to and from hull, and allow measuring to and from a decorative element. The rule can be considered an addition rather than an exception, as well.
The rules allow for it to be both an addition and an exception - all additions and exceptions within that section override the regular vehicle rules.
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mukslinger
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PostSubject: Re: Raider sails...   Fri Oct 28 2011, 23:28

lol, I forgot it was 40k, how dare I make sense.

I do see the side of the story that non-specific wording of "any point" can create a broad stroke grey area. I respect that. I just think that diagrams and rules in the book clear it up, at least for me it does. I follow the rules/examples in the book to determine what is hull/decorative, with the rule that decorative elements are ignored, and therefore embark/disembark from any point of the hull. and of course all measurements are to and from hull anyway.

a little off topic again to the flying transport thing...

Just double checked the rules, you do indeed disembark and embark from the valk base. It's in the imperial guard faq, would be the same for stormravens or any other flying transport on a base like this. I knew I read that somewhere, hooray for retaining useless information, lol!
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