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 Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi

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Old vs. New?
Old Incubi - Guns on Hats and skullfaces FTW!
30%
 30% [ 20 ]
New Incubi - Have you seen the size of their swords? Huge!
49%
 49% [ 33 ]
I'll field any DE assault unit that has power weapons.
15%
 15% [ 10 ]
Incubi should wear thongs too, after all, they're male Succubi.
6%
 6% [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 67
 

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Ruke
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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Sat Apr 21 2012, 17:30

Tentacle penis heads?

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Sat Apr 21 2012, 18:07

While I still have a soft spot for the old penishead helmet(imagine Dr. Evil: "I want bodyguards with fricking splinter pistols mounted on their fricking heads!"), I really do dig the new giant blades and Donnie Darko looking satanic bunny masks with horns.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Sat Apr 21 2012, 23:12

New ones would win hands down, and I will happily tell you why:

You didn't factor in Onslought.

Onslaught means that you made about 1.5 extra attacks thanks to all those dice being rolled, which should translate into one additional wound in the above combat. This is a critical difference because this would force the opposing unit to flee in nearly all cases, and the New Incubi would be dumped out of combat into the midst of enemy shooting with a 3+/FNP save, and might even consolidate into cover.

Also, I agree with other players on this: thanks to our superior maneuverability, it is quite easy to catch enemy units out of cover and thus not need the grenades, often when they disembark from vehicles or deep strike onto the board models are not getting into cover. Yes, grenades would help but they are hardly the necessary tool that others are making them out to be. Even when charging into cover, 3+/FNP can make the unit very nasty against units without massed power weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Sun Apr 22 2012, 01:59

Onslaught is a joke of a power, but I'm happy to do the number crunching if you wish to see it;

With a 10 man squad you have a total of 8.22 wounds average - which means 1.37 sixes rolled to wound, which means .685 extra hits, which is .45 extra wounds. Feel free to factor it in but it's not really making a huge impact that shifts anything dramatically.

Also - there's no assurance of FNP off failed morale - they need to catch the other Incubi in resolution to get that - they won't wipe them with Onslaught and the Old Incubi have a fair chance to scuttle away without being wiped since they also have a huge Init value.

That all said - I did claim New Incubi won the fights outright both times.

Considering the current meta I'll note I disagree with you about cover. Even taking away various armies (like Grey Knights) that just magically create cover situations it is not really a matter of 'maneuverability' to avoid cover. Most shooting units are placed inside of cover, so by definition you need to go through it. Assault units usually (as you noted) try to consolidate into cover, and when not doing that usually it's a question of whether you pop them out of their transport (and on an explode result they'll be in cover). I'll happily agree that grenades are not *needed* for an assault unit. But it's certainly a blow to the potency of the assault unit to only be able to get grenades by attaching an IC - I suspect there's an exceedingly small number of assault units that require that...in fact, I can't think of any other assault unit that lacks intrinsic grenades or the ability to get them without adding an IC. I guess...Meganobz, though they can get them off their vehicle...that's all I can come up with right now. It is a pretty derptastic limitation to the new and is certainly one of the stronger reasons I never field them competitively (that and DCA mocking them and calling them wusses all the time).

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Sun Apr 22 2012, 02:26

I posit that the reasons GW didn't give Incubi 'nades of their own are twofold:

- after a while, nobody would field Archons anymore
- the 40K universe would implode with the sheer awesomeness of it

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Sun Apr 22 2012, 02:58

@Raneth wrote:
I posit that the reasons GW didn't give Incubi 'nades of their own are twofold:

- after a while, nobody would field Archons anymore
- the 40K universe would implode with the sheer awesomeness of it
Quote of the day Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Sun Apr 22 2012, 20:22

@Thor665 wrote:
.in fact, I can't think of any other assault unit that lacks intrinsic grenades or the ability to get them without adding an IC. I guess...Meganobz, though they can get them off their vehicle...that's all I can come up with right now.

Most Tyranid units, including Genestealers lack grenades or any means of getting them (Warriors and Hive Tyrans have lash whips thta drops enemies in base contact to i 1, but that only affects enemies in base contact and means that the enemy will strike simultaneously when you charge into cover). Atleast the Incubi have 3+ saves and can get grenades from an Archon. Genesetealers are completely screwed if they have to charge through cover (with only a 5+ save, they're a unit that pretty much relies on hitting first).

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Sun Apr 22 2012, 20:32

Tyranids used to - but, yeah, I'd forgotten about them.

Then again - that's a universal complaint from Nid players that they lack them, but I will happily say, competitively, I consider Incubi slightly better than most Tyranids....for what that's worth Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Sun Apr 22 2012, 20:40

Quote :
Most Tyranid units, including Genestealers lack grenades or any means of getting them (Warriors and Hive Tyrans have lash whips thta drops enemies in base contact to i 1, but that only affects enemies in base contact and means that the enemy will strike simultaneously when you charge into cover). Atleast the Incubi have 3+ saves and can get grenades from an Archon. Genesetealers are completely screwed if they have to charge through cover (with only a 5+ save, they're a unit that pretty much relies on hitting first).

I'll agree with that... how bad the 'nids got screwed over in their codex, along with the fact that they don't feel as like a bio-terror unit (like they did in 4th) is what drove me away from playing them.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Tue Apr 24 2012, 16:37

So Im supprised at how close this was. I was sure the New would roflstomp the old, but I guess hats with guns and awesome polearms have some fans afterall Very Happy

Question, does anyone but me still use their old incubi? I mean I rarely seem them on any battle reps, that being said I rarely see incubi at all, but thats all meta and what not.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Tue Apr 24 2012, 18:00

Old for me. In the last codex I used incubi all the time, hardly ever use them now. I guess they are just competing against other solid choices in the elites section and really do need the archon with them to be effective. This bumps the cost up considerably.
I usually agree with the way you stage the match-ups but this time I feel that as both units really need to be accompanied by an archon then they should have been in there. The old archon wipes the floor with the new one in combat and would probably have swung the "incubi" battles in the old's favour.

Perhaps I'm just being too nostalgic.
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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Tue Apr 24 2012, 20:14

New Incubi have fleet. That makes them instantly better.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Wed Apr 25 2012, 19:54

@ Shadows Revenge: I regularly run two units of 5 Incubi, half of them are the old models. I actually kijijid the old incubi cause I love them so much and only had 2. So yeah people still use the old models.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Thu Apr 26 2012, 03:52

::In Dos Equis voice::

@Shadow - I don't run Incubi all the time, but when I do, I prefer to use old models.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Thu Apr 26 2012, 07:41

@kenny3760 wrote:
Old for me. In the last codex I used incubi all the time, hardly ever use them now. I guess they are just competing against other solid choices in the elites section and really do need the archon with them to be effective. This bumps the cost up considerably.
<snip>

For the record, that remark seems a bit strange to me. In the old codex you couldn't even field Incubi on their own if you wanted to. They were retinue. Now you can.
Plus you don't 'need' the archon to make them effective at all. You just need to be a little bit smarter and make sure they assault units out of cover. But even if the assaulted unit is in cover the Incubi can take a hit or two you know. So even the plasma grenades are not a necessity...
I do concur they compete with other solid choices though. Blaster born in the elite section, or an entire Wych squad in a Raider as scoring troops for the same cost and just as annoying for the oponnent in CC. For example.

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Thu Apr 26 2012, 18:33

Definitely new. Between the point discount, fleet, improved transports, potential for FNP and Furious Charge, and being generally more accessible in the FOC, it's really no contest.

If Lelith Hesperax weren't already using my only allowed shadowfield, I'd probably field a Dracon to complement their 3+ armor save. Unfortunately, that's not the case -- and you'd have to give me a rather strong argument to give up Lelith. Just...Wow.
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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Thu Apr 26 2012, 18:56

@corollax wrote:
Definitely new. Between the point discount, fleet, improved transports, potential for FNP and Furious Charge, and being generally more accessible in the FOC, it's really no contest.

If Lelith Hesperax weren't already using my only allowed shadowfield, I'd probably field a Dracon to complement their 3+ armor save. Unfortunately, that's not the case -- and you'd have to give me a rather strong argument to give up Lelith. Just...Wow.

First off the improved transports is up for debate. last codex our transports were cheaper, and sure we didnt have flickerfields, but then our transports were also going flat out the first turn, meaning they were getting the same saves our transports are now. Personally while I like flickerfields, I think having our transports back to old edition points without flickerfields would be better (less enphasis on shooting, and it would bring back our assault elements... but I digress)

secondly what codex are you reading from? You can have multiple shadowfields now, and Lelith no longer has one... Also a Dracon is not a HQ anymore. Someone is taking a walk down memory lane Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Thu Apr 26 2012, 19:21

This whole topic is a walk down memory lane. I was trying to look at what factors might motivate me to take incubi in the old codex. The shadowfield restriction is absolutely relevant to that.
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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Thu Apr 26 2012, 19:28

true true, but the only reason I took lelith is if I was running a Wych Cult. There was no reason not to take her (unless you wanted a Archite on bike... but that is besides the point) But personally Kabal was the strongest of old Codex' builds competitiveness wise. I mean come on, 100 points for scoring 2 dark lances was insane.

On top of that, Incubi were a retinue, meaning the dracon couldnt be picked out in close combat. You really did not need that shadowfield with so many 3+ armor saves protecting you Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Thu Apr 26 2012, 19:32

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
true true, but the only reason I took lelith is if I was running a Wych Cult. There was no reason not to take her (unless you wanted a Archite on bike... but that is besides the point) But personally Kabal was the strongest of old Codex' builds competitiveness wise. I mean come on, 100 points for scoring 2 dark lances was insane.
Really? I felt the wych cult was the more impressive of the two options. The static warrior squad forces you into a battle of attrition -- something Dark Eldar aren't generally well equipped to win. Wyches seem more capable of controlling the flow of the game, and actually give you more darklight weaponry per point and FoC than the warriors do.

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
On top of that, Incubi were a retinue, meaning the dracon couldnt be picked out in close combat. You really did not need that shadowfield with so many 3+ armor saves protecting you Very Happy
Depends -- are those wounds power weapons? Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Thu Apr 26 2012, 22:53

@corollax wrote:

Depends -- are those wounds power weapons? Very Happy

IRRELEVANT! We are the masters of mobility. If there's so much armor-ignoring threat emanating from a unit you need to Wych them up ASAP

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Fri Apr 27 2012, 02:08

@tlronin wrote:
For the record, that remark seems a bit strange to me. In the old codex you couldn't even field Incubi on their own if you wanted to. They were retinue. Now you can.
Yes, and that was what everyone wanted from Incubi - the ability to field them without an Archon.
Then GW made it so that they can't get grenades unless you field them with an Archon...
Notice the derp in that?

@tlronin wrote:
Plus you don't 'need' the archon to make them effective at all. You just need to be a little bit smarter and make sure they assault units out of cover. But even if the assaulted unit is in cover the Incubi can take a hit or two you know. So even the plasma grenades are not a necessity...
As a rejoinder to this - your idea of 'playing smarter' sounds to me like my idea of 'allow my enemy to dictate what I can assault' and I don't like to do that, personally.
Also, yes, they can take a hit or two...and some will die before they can swing, and they are very expensive and rely on weight of attacks to sweep units so though you can do it that way, I personally wouldn't want to - especially if the unit I'm assaulting has power weapons like many elite assault units do - and if I'm getting Incubi and admitting I'll only assault stuff in the open or weenie squads in cover...then do I need to take Incubi as opposed to some other assault option?

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Fri Apr 27 2012, 07:50

@Thor665 wrote:
@tlronin wrote:
For the record, that remark seems a bit strange to me. In the old codex you couldn't even field Incubi on their own if you wanted to. They were retinue. Now you can.
Yes, and that was what everyone wanted from Incubi - the ability to field them without an Archon.
Then GW made it so that they can't get grenades unless you field them with an Archon...
Notice the derp in that?

Yes, I noticed. Just saying that they are not all of a sudden useless without plasma grenades.

@Thor665 wrote:
@tlronin wrote:
Plus you don't 'need' the archon to make them effective at all. You just need to be a little bit smarter and make sure they assault units out of cover. But even if the assaulted unit is in cover the Incubi can take a hit or two you know. So even the plasma grenades are not a necessity...
As a rejoinder to this - your idea of 'playing smarter' sounds to me like my idea of 'allow my enemy to dictate what I can assault' and I don't like to do that, personally.
Also, yes, they can take a hit or two...and some will die before they can swing, and they are very expensive and rely on weight of attacks to sweep units so though you can do it that way, I personally wouldn't want to - especially if the unit I'm assaulting has power weapons like many elite assault units do - and if I'm getting Incubi and admitting I'll only assault stuff in the open or weenie squads in cover...then do I need to take Incubi as opposed to some other assault option?

No, my idea of playing smarter is basically the mantra for every Dark Eldar player. So it's nothing new really and I think in retrospect unnecessary to say. We (DE players) have no room for error on any unit, so also not the Incubi. So it was a little redundant of me to mention.
That being said, I don't disagree with you on any point really. These are the arguments carried all over the i-netz regarding the Incubi and I share the sentiment. I even said on this forum that I ussually field Incubi in a Venom with my Archon and a PGL, especially in tournaments.
But I have a couple of games in now and I noticed how I usually pop the tin can (by immobilizing/wrecking/destroying) around mid field. the mushy insides spill out and I assault with Incubi. No plasma grenades needed. Seriously, rince and repeat kinda thing.
As far as your question, the answer seems to be: No. I noticed how i often take an extra squad of Wyches in a Raider and have enough punch to bring to the table with a scoring unit. Always nice.
But i still do like the option in the new codex to field Incubi without an Archon and I knów you love your options Thor. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Mon Apr 30 2012, 01:09

Looks like this one is ready to be called - New Incubi for the win.
Probably means I owe everyone the next poll too...

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PostSubject: Re: Old vs. New - Battle of the Incubi   Sat Jun 02 2012, 01:06

@Tiri Rana wrote:

And seriously 'hats with guns' guys, 'hats with guns'! What's more awesome than that?
Hats that give extra attacks? Like Mandiblasters?

Since in the old, i didnt field them, cause i needed points for more awesomeness - mostly mandrakes - and i do field them in my current lists - those attacks with fleet are awesome - my vote is for the new one, but not cause of Da Big Zordz!

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